To the Senators whining that they had to walk next to commoners and they did not have a clear evacuation plan… Guess what knuckle heads, who’s in charge??? YOU GUYS. If you want to whine about the evacuation procedure, blame yourself.
To the jackass reporter pestering Scott McClellan, YES all aircraft have radios. NO we don’t let planes just fly around with no radios. Do you have a brain?
To News Editors… Can you PLEASE make your reporters learn a little about aviation? Right now, airplanes are just a wee bit important to the national security. Do you think maybe your reporters (at least if they reach the national level) could learn a wing from a transponder? Is it too much to ask?
To the Whitehouse Press corps. I really don’t care if you had to evacuate and your toes hurt. I also don’t care if you were scared and felt your life was in danger. DUH you work at the Whitehouse during a war… (remember the war?) be lucky this is the biggest things that ever happened. If you don’t want the “danger” of the job go back to Iowa.
To FoxNews. please tell John Loftus that he has to stop taking 3 martini lunches then getting on the air and making a jackass out of himself. I know you guys were caught without a guest but having someone who advocates shooting down aircraft 75 miles from the Whitehouse is a moron. We would have shot down hundreds of lost aircraft in the last 3 years INCLUDING the Gov of Kentucky. I knew more about aviation when I was 12 then this guy. Please never let him talk about aircraft again. He’s a federal prosecutor… Let him talk about the Michael Jackson case, not aviation. He was an embarrassment to FoxNews.
To most everyone else on cable news, please learn the difference between mountains and molehills. Geeze people, it was a stray aircraft. Pilots get lost too.
Sorry, my stupidity tolerance level has been far exceeded by the stupidity coming from cable news networks… I had to vent.
Yeah, what Paul said….
– CrankyOldConservaticePilot
I was watching that as well and Loftus never said anything about shotting down the plane 75 miles out. He advocated shooting down the plane after it was given three warnings including flares being dropped from fighter planes. The plane got within 3 miles of the White House, 4 of the Capitol, that is a huge deal. The pilot didn’t simply “get lost”. He went in restricted space then out then in again and zig zagged around once in, not responding to the tower, radios or several warnings. What kind of message are we sending here allowing that? If he had any type of chemical weapon he could have killed thousands.
>The pilot didn’t simply “get lost”.
How do you know that? Were you in the plane? You don’t know jack. We have no idea why he was there.
>He went in restricted space then out then in again and zig zagged around once in
And how do you know that? Scott McClellan (you know the voice of the Whitehouse) said that was not so. I believe him over you.
I’d bet a mortgage payment you ain’t a pilot.
No, I’m not, but I do work directly across the street from the white house, was evacuated, and watched the jets and helos.
Paul: “Geeze people, it was a stray aircraft. Pilots get lost too.”
Paul: “We have no idea why he was there.”
Which is it?
Do I need to buy you a dictionary?
The statements were not mutually exclusive.
The aircraft was stray, pilots do get lost and we have no idea why he was there.
Now quit being a jackass.
“Lost”??? You mean the pilot couldn’t see the Capitol, White House, Washington Monument, etc…c’mon. I dont think people that get “lost” that close to our political nerve center should be able to have a pilots license!
Exactly Rylo. And Paul, give me a break, if you are saying he was simply lost, then you know why he was there, he was lost. If you are saying you don’t know why he was there, than that implies he was either up to something, or he was lost but you you are not sure which. So which is it? What are you trying to say? Are you saying that you know for a fact he was simply lost or are you saying that we don’t know why he was there and could have been up to something?
If I were one of those evacuated reporters I’d be making a stink too. This was the deadliest threat to the White House press corps since Jeff Gannon. /sarcasm
Incidentally, we do let planes fly around with no radios…. but not in the Washington Domestic ADIZ.
Lemme type slower since you are having trouble keeping up….
We have no idea what the whole story is.
Yes, the MOST PROBABLE is that he was lost.
UPDATE especially since a student pilot was involved.
Let me explain something to those of you who have never flown an aircraft. There are no street signs up there and from 5,000 feet most all buildings look alike.
Grow up people.
But Paul, what are you REALLY mad about?
Not quite sure why you are lashing out at everyone else here Paul. Nobody has called you names. YOU maintained that he was simply lost, but then you said you don’t know why he was there. If he was simply lost then we would know exactly why he was there, BECAUSE HE WAS LOST. Obviously you are having trouble keeping up. But instead you immediately resort to name calling. Grow up yourself.
Thanks for link Paul. Did you read the line “Henderson described Sheaffer as an experienced pilot who should have known to avoid restricted airspace”. Anyone with 1/2 a brain could distinguish the friggin WHITE HOUSE and CAPITOL from other buildings. ESPECIALLY from ONLY 5000 feet. Did he think he was flying over “memorial land USA”? He must’ve also mistaken the flares for UFO’s and decided to just keep zig zag’n.
Expertise – I’m mad because people can’t freaking read!
I never once said the guy was lost much less “maintained” he was lost. I have said that pilots get lost and that him being lost was the most probable explanation of today’s events.
Go here.
You most DEFINITELY said he got lost Paul, “To most everyone else on cable news, please learn the difference between mountains and molehills. Geeze people, it was a stray aircraft. Pilots get lost too.” And don’t try to argue that your statement “Pilots get lost too” is just making a point that pilots in general can get lost, because besides that statement, you said “it was a stray aircraft” referring to the plane in question. So YES you DID say he was lost.
rylo, you a pilot?
D-Hoss thank you for proving the quote that proves your stupidity. You can’t read.
Deny, deny, deny Paul. It is quite obvious you said he was lost. Seems you are the one in need of reading/writing comprehension. What exactly did you mean by “Geeze people, it was a stray aircraft.” if you didn’t mean that it was lost? Please, explain that one to me Paul. Maybe you need a dictionary to look up the word stray.
Bet that student pilot was shitting his pants. My first cross countries were scary enough and I didn’t have fighter jets firing flares at me.
Still wierd that the “very experienced” pilot who was also on the plane let them get that lost. And then did not respond to repeated attempts to turn back.
Paul, from 5,000 feet buildings are pretty recognizable especially in cities that are as recognizable as DC with odd shaped domed buildings and big tall pointy looking things.
5,000 feet is only five times the height of the Empire State building, or from a mile away, most larger buildings are very visible as long as you are not flying towards the sun on a hazy day.
Oh, and about the roadsign thing, there is an old pilot joke about the the definition of IFR — I Follow Roads. Even usuing only dead reckoning, it is hard to get that lost — the charts and the geographic detail in that area are not too challenging, not like flying over water or desert. Or, when you get lost, you get on the radio, there are ways to find out where you are without sounding like an idiot. To venture far into a no fly zone that you knew was there is a tad bit worse.
Hopefully this can be used as a dry run to perfect evacuation and response plans for any future threat that may be real.
No, I’m not a pilot. I understand your wanting to defend a fellow aviator but I cannot believe you haven’t once said this guy did anything wrong. Even if he did just stray off course (mistake #1), he did not heed several warnings to remove his aircraft from the area (BIG mistake #2). I’m not saying he should be treated like a terrorist, but a complete bonehead, sure.
You really are not capable of rational thought are you.
There are thousands of stray aircraft a year. This was not that big a deal. Before 9/11 about 4 planes per year would cross into WH airspace. The main reason it has gone down is that people pay more attention post 9/11. If you count the number of planes that stray into restricted airspace of some kind, they number in the thousands every year. It is not unusual.
What has happened here is that you mouthed off about him NOT being lost. (a claim you have no clue about) THEN you claimed he zig zagged into restricted airspace (another claim you don’t know shit about) then when I called you on it, you tried to play stupid word games to avoid that fact you are a clueless jackass.
What exactly are you trying to argue??? He was NOT lost and he was a terrorist????
Good luck with that whack job theory.
Why not step back and just accept that we don’t have the full story but it was probably human error. How hard is it?
Also,
He was flying around heavily controlled airspace and at least two major ATC’s. MANY people were trying to contact him way before the jets showed up.
See Paul, even a pilot disgrees with you. Your awfully determined to make excuses for this guy. Was it you in that plane? Are you posting now from the cockpit? Keep your head up and watch where you’re going please.
See Paul, even a pilot disagrees with you. Your awfully determined to make excuses for this guy. Was it you in that plane? Are you posting now from the cockpit? Keep your head up and watch where you’re going please. lol
I don’t disagree with Paul, I think the guy was probably just lost.
I just think it’s strange that an experienced pilot reacted the way he did.
rylo I’m not defending anyone.
To say it was probably human error is not defending him, it is stating the obvious. You got a better explanation?
My point thru all of this is that people who don’t know shit about what they are talking about are spouting things that are patently stupid.
But for the record we don’t (yet) know what he ignored or didn’t.
That he flew into WH airspace defined he screwed up. (once) What he did or didn’t do after that we don’t know yet. — The media claimed repeatedly that he went into and out of restricted airspace. Now that looks to be not true. Use the 48 hour rule.
In the mean time, people who don’t know anything about aircraft spouting off at the mouth just look stupid to those of us who know a little about the subject.
mesa I’m trying to type a long post but I am busy. PROBABLY the student was navigating and screwed up.
It can not be stressed enough that the senior pilot (AKA Pilot in Command) was ultimately responsible. The FAA will pull his ticket even if the other guy screwed up. It was “his aircraft.”
The way things like this usually happen is the flight instructor trusts his student and gets lazy. Then when they buzz the WH the finger pointing begins. The FAA solved this long ago. The “Pilot in Command” is responsible. PERIOD.
But from an explainer point of view, it is like two outfielders going for same fly ball. They both stop because they think the other has it.
This is only speculation obviously but I’d give you 100:1 odds I’m right. It happens every day. Just not over the WH.
No Paul, my argument was that TO ME, it didn’t seem this person was simply lost after disregarding several warnings. To me, and the others who work ACROSS THE STREET from the White House, we had no idea what he was doing there, but it was not a small deal. You brushed it off as him simply being lost. If you were’nt such an asshole who is so quick to jump all over everyone you might have stopped to get a point of view from someone who got evacuated and watched the planes overhead. So no, I don’t know jack shit about what he was doing there, and you know even LESS than I do. And by the way, it is way more than 4 planes per year that go into restricted airspace around the Capitol, there was a statement earlier today that it is more like 4 a DAY, but most of them aren’t fucking retards and listen to the tower when warned. But you already knew that didn’t you. You state that all I wanted to do was play word game?! Look in the mirror Paul. Several people have pointed out flaws in your post and all you do is tell them they can’t read.
You’re correct abt 48hrs. Lets let the facts come out. Then we can re-address this guy being a complete moron in how he handled the situation.
OH sorry Mesa, didn’t see you flew — then you know all that.
Another thing all of you have missed. ATC knew it was a small slow craft.
Had it been a jet they would have reacted differently. Very differently.
“I’m from Iowa. I only work in DC.”
hee hee… love it when Paul says “Bite Me.”
Figuratively- of course.
Who here thought ATC didn’t know it was a small craft? Who here thought they would’nt act differently if it had been a jet? I don’t remember anyone missing those points. You don’t have to be an aviator to figure that out.
I’m a recreational pilot, and practically the entire ‘navigation’ method of the student pilot is knowing what in the heck your landmarks are. And if I approach (not enter – just approach) any of the many restricted areas around Seattle (a nuclear sub base, a naval air base, a major AF base) you get told what direction to fly. Quickly.
Back to the topic, while we’re at it can someone please ask the ladies and gents of the press to stop asking where they go when they take the President to “a secure area?” Do they honestly believe that one day the Press Secretary will accidentally slip up and answer them? BTW, my favorite part was when the Fox guy suggested that we take the plane away from the little rich kid and make his Daddy pay the bill. That plane probably cost less than the commenter’s car.
So has a radar track for the plane been published yet? Anyone know for sure if it had an operating transponder?
Seems kind of odd that a flying school is doing primary instruction in that area, between the restricted areas and Reagan National’s Class A airspace (do they still call it that?).
And Paul, I used to think that journalistic cluelessness about aviation was a genetic gap of some kind. Then, I started to realize that the problem was much wider than that. I’m revealing my age here, but years ago I posted a rant to rec.aviation about how the AP misidentified a 737 involved in a mishap as a MD80. (There are differences that would be obvious to the casual observer, such as the fact that the 737 has its engines under the wings and the MD80 has them on the tail.) A lawyer responded on the group that he was equally frustrated with journalists who were habitually unable to understand basic facts about courtrooms and trials, such as what the difference is between a prosecution witness and a defense witness.
That was the moment that I started to realize how bankrupt the American MSM is, and has been for a long time.
Lol, just heard on Fox that the plane “was not making the appropriate squawking noises”.
If it turns out to be true that they flew into restricted airspace with their transponder turned off or squawking the wrong code it will really add to the list of screw ups by the two on this plane.
I wonder what that “squawk” sounds like.
Hey Paul,
you must be in a pissy mood today…. I like FOX news!!!
Cindy
Regardless of how this incident happened, I have NO SYMPATHY for inconvenienced members of our government. After all, they are the ones who continue to allow our sieve-like borders to admit anyone who might wish to kill Americans.
Paul,
I’d have to say that you did ineed imply the guy was just lost in your post. (I agree whole-heartedly). But then in your first rebuttal you did write “We don’t know why he was there.” Not to be a semantic ass but they ARE mutually exclusive. You either KNOW why he was there (lost) or you DO NOT KNOW (maybe lost, maybe not…who knows?).
You cannot claim he’s just a stray if you don’t know for sure…and by your own admission you didn’t know. You can suggest he was probably a stray. But you can’t say it’s no big deal until we know for sure.One doesn’t need to be a pilot to know that.
I’m not a pilot but I’ve jumped out of a lot of airplanes in my day…and there’s no way in hell that a pilot on VFR is going to mistake the Whitehouse, the capital, and the Washington monument, for anything but what they are from 5000 ft and clear skies. And if he was IFR, What the hell was the instructor ACTUALLY doing!?
Over all- I agree with your post. Journalists are f*cking idiots that couldn’t pass physics 101… and so they are barely qualified to write, let alone write with some degree of competency about anything in the least bit technical.
Private airplanes must have and use radio communications ONLY while in controlled airspace.
Some airplanes in the midwest always fly in uncontrolled airspace, and they are not required to have radios at all.
Let’s see: these brainiacs knew around 11:40ish that some teeny plane was headed toward the capitol 75 miles out, getting closer, closer, closer, no contact — but hey if they really think it’s a threat, they don’t scramble the jets til 12/noon? (3 miles out)? Close enough to scatter whatever potentially hazardous contents over all the scattering knuckleheads….geez, makes perfect sense to me. (it’s one way to permanently evacuate the capitol)
Meanwhile: THE LATEST NEWS they don’t give a flying flip about and which doesn’t register on the radar of TPTB (the powers that be –including MSM):
WAGES for regular workers WORSEN: low wages going lower, high deficits, corporate & business crime/greed/irresponsibility, disappearing pensions and benefits, no health care … the american worker (the american citizen) continues to get the shaft, especially from the republicans — the values crowd which ‘values PROFITS over people’ any day of the week.
They can ALL be EVACUATED for a very very very long time as far as I’m concerned. (that goes for the press corps too)
The “squawk” makes no noise. It’s just a term for the transponder transmission at whatever frequency it’s set to.
Also, “class A” airspace is that which is above 18000 feet. Presumably the reference was to class B (or C ?) airspace around Reagan.
Why do I get the distinct feeling that if the prior poster had added a Chimpy McHitler, a couple War for Oils, and a half dozen Halliburtons, that their comments would directly mirror those found on the DU ?
How long did it take for the moonbats to blame this plane incident on Karl Rover ?
Though I should never be shocked, I have to admit that even I was surprised that Atrios trotted out allegations from Larry freaking Flynt as being the nail in the coffin for the Bolton nomination.
I do not think it would be possible for the conservatives to write a script better than what the Dems do when left to their own devices !
My prior post was referring to that pissed citizen, not jack rudd, though I suspect that was quite obvious.
Jack,
That’s why I was laughing.
It was funny to hear them say so seriously that “the wrong squawking noises” were coming from the plane.
Next time I ident I will listen a little closer.
“1200! AWWWWK! 1200!”
Geeze people, it was a stray aircraft. Pilots get lost too.
Damn… It seems like I heard the exact same thing on all the news channels at about 8:49 AM on 9/11/01.
Then the second plane hit…
I am not willing to take such a chance again- this plane should have been shot down.