Rather than create several posts on news in the Terri Schiavo case, I’m going to try to hit the highlights of coverage around the blogosphere and in the news in one spot. A couple points I haven’t seen widely covered to consider…
Did you know that Terri Schiavo has been declared indigent, and her care is being paid for by Florida taxpayers? Where did all the money that was earmarked for her care go? Much of it went to Michael Schiavo’s lawyers, in payments approved as “for her benefit” by the court. Attorneys: Schiavo settlement money spent [St. Petersburg Times]
Michael Schiavo has a new family with kids via his common law wife, Jodi Centonze, who he has referred to as his “fiancee” for over 5 years. She’s profiled here.
Terri’s family appears to have thrown in the towel on the legal challenges to her court ordered euthanizing. The new battle, which is as unseemly as any of the previous battles, is for Terri’s body…
Just who was it that walked away from a deal in 2003 between the Schindler family, Michael Schiavo, and Florida Governor Jeb Bush? It was Michael’s attorney George Felos. Some truths in the Schiavo case [Keith Olbermann]
It turns out that both sides are getting financial help. Schiavo case has myriad fund sources [St. Petersburg Times]
The Terri Schiavo case has attracted its share of whack jobs (example), but inviting Randall Terry to the party in hindsight probably seems like a pretty bad idea. Anger at Bushes as time grows short for Schiavo [USAToday]
Kevin McCullough (WMCA New York) and is staff have produced “Terri’s Day in Paradise,” which intersperses sound bites from various players in the Terri Schiavo case with Phil Collins’s “Another Day in Paradise.” You can download it or hear it live at Kevin’s weblog.
More proof Michael Schiavo had the better lawyer.
Michael Schiavo’s lawyer George Felos announced that an autopsy will be performed on Terri after her death, to silence allegations his plan to cremate her body is aimed at hiding something. Schiavo to Undergo Autopsy to End Debate — Lawyer [Reuters]Oh yeah, Terri’s still slowly being starved to death, a fate her husband claims she would have wanted…
jYt–I have heard Jackie Rhodes talk about bruises and how at the time she did not think much about them and even wondered if Terri had hit her upper legs on the corners of desks at work. That may well be why she did not mention them in her testimony, or maybe she was not asked. She insists that Terri was wanting a divorce very badly at the time, however. She is also the one who said that Terri had spent $80 on her hair the day she ‘collapsed’ and that Terri and Michael had fought about it all day before he went to work in the evening. She has been on at least three major TV Channels giving interviews.
Certainly there is much in the way of testimony that was either not allowed in or was for some strange reason deemed not credible by the only one to have a say in this regard, Judge Greer. I wonder why he would take the word of Micheal over that of three nurses but he did, every time, didn’t he? No one was credible to him except Michael. Being legally blind, I guess that helped him not to have to see the videos of Terri smiling and responding to her mother. Maybe Michael described what was happening to him, that would be credible I suppose?
As to Wolfson, yes, he certainly does seem like a decent sort but the problem comes in with the fact that those of different sides in this just do not read him the same way. I have also watched him on at least two occasions giving interviews for television but I did read the article to which you refer. They are all pretty well consistent except I have heard him say he did not want to see Terri die and have to wonder why if this is such a good and wonderful thing. Whereas you see all of this affirmation, I see that he made two suggestions that were NEVER carried out. One was for swallowing tests and the other new neurological testing. I would assume he meant something from this century and not the very early nineties like an MRI or better yet, as I understand it, the more sensitive PET scan.
Now when a person is giving advice and counsel in this manner, one can assume their conclusions would be based on their suggestions being carried out, not totally ignored as these were. Very odd, that. The only scans we have in these records are old CAT scans. There is an opinion by a radiologist at http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/codeblueblog/ wherein another physician or two takes a look at the CAT scan (if it is even Terri’s–how would we know with her in a facility under the control of Felos?) and discuss the fact that they see the end of a shunt and some electrodes of some sort that were installed as some sort of experiemental something Michael had done. Those things are supposed to be maintained and checked from time to time to see if they have shifted.
But if there is indeed a shunt or electrodes, without follow up care, this is certainly abusive. I consider stopping her rehab to use the money to hire lawyers to kill her abusive but perhaps you do not see it that way. If it were me, I can assure you I would find that VERY abusive. If there was a shunt, why? Why was it discontinued and was it still needed, what’s with all that stuff in her poor brain! No wonder she has brain damage! But those commenting there offer assurances that the CAT scan shows only a thinning of the cerebral cortex, like that of an elderly lady instead of someone her age, it certainly is not missing nor liquified. Perhaps the autopsy will shed some light on this but it is really a moot point at this late date.
So Wolfson was fond of Terri and her family and I think he is trying to say something that would be of comfort to the family and desperately so. The glaring facts that stand out to me in the article of which you quote is the fact his suggestions were not carried out and not acted upon at all. Those things left in her brain without follow up maintenance sound pretty abusive to me along with several other aspects of her care the nurses have sworn affidavits concerning, one going to far as to contact the police. And having all personal things like her teddy bears and family photos removed and the shaded drawn to deprive her of any mental stimulation might not constitute actual abuse but certainly are not acts of kindness.
Two years ago, my sister was cremated and she had to have an autopsy. Hers was required because she was a person who died alone, that is not in the presence of any other people. So apparently, the cause of death can influence whether or not an autopsy is required but in the State of Tennessee, one was required because of the cirmcumstance and questions as to why she died. If this is how it is determined, there certainly are enough questions to require one in the Shaivo situation when and if that time comes. I try to continue to have hope but it is difficult this far into things.
One other thing in the Wolfson article that stands out to me is how he very carefully made it perfectly clear that Terri’s comment concerning whether or not she would want to live on life support was made in reference to two people on what he calls respirators. Ventilators is the correct term but think they used to be called respirators. He worked that in every so smoothly I thought. She did NOT say it about people with feeding tubes but two on “respirators” which is a whole different item entirely. Felos is the one who got it introduced to have feeding tubes included in the definition of life support, BTW. I wonder exactly when he did that. So while some might read the Wolfson article and see only affirmation of their own beliefs, others will read it and see the glaring questions arise concerning his suggestions being ignored and the fact that Terri spoke only of people on respirators, if she said that at all. Again, only people named Schiavo seemed to be able to hear this. Sort of like the client of Felos that only he could hear screaming to die, isn’t it?
I read an excerpt from Felos book about the ‘spirit’ of one of his clients screaming but only he, Felos, could hear her begging him to help her die. So evidently the man has delusions about necromancy. Yes, Michael Shiavo certainly selected his team carefully and by using her rehab money, he was able to afford the best of the Death Cult, many of them literally card-carrying members of the Hemlock Society and having spoken before gatherings of it it and other death organizations including those supported by George Soros in the area. Soros has spent billions on his project “Death in America” and there seems to be a little wad of them surrounding this case. Strange to say the least, but I believe this particular group is so eager to kill somebody, anybody, they would say and do just about anything to get to be a part of that. I think they need help themselves and it is they who are disabled and in far worse condition than Terri for evidently from her reaction to her mother, at least she has not lost that which most makes us human, the ability to love. They have.
And as for the issue of the federal government, congress, etc, stepping in, yes, indeedy, I wish that had not been necessary and it is wrong but certainly no more wrong that the State of Florida issuing what amounts to an order for execution for this woman. It even reads like one ending in the phrase “until dead” just as though she is a criminal being sentended to be hanged at sunrise. Some will decry this as being a “family matter” but see absolutely nothing wrong with the state governement being in charge and actually ordering that this happen in the first place. So the federal intervention is certainly not even on par with that little trick. Odd, though, how some only mind the federal intervention and not the state. I personally do not consider my state a part of my family but some apparently do.
Jefferson said that it was the paramount duty of government to preserve human life. Either all human life is sacred or at least to be protected or none of it is. We can’t have it both ways.
Depending on the jurisdiction, it’s determined by state or local law. So jyt, what’s your specific authority for when/when not autopsies are required in that particular situation?
jYt–So because you and Larry say the requirement for an autopsy is bunk, that settles it? I have briefly addressed this in my last post but will keep my eyes and ears open for where the regs on that can be found–no more time for now–but while some of us say it is required and some say it isn’t, it may well be an issue of circumstances under which death occurred as was the case with my sister. Just the fact no one else was present when she died required one. I have heard several journalists whom I deem credible make this statement but a just off the top on my head, it may be the fact that Michael is planning to transport the remains across state lines that cause it to be a requirement as well. Some states can be downright cranky about things like that, especially ones where agriculture is an important industry.
It does sound perfectly reasonable and I suspect one or the other of us will come forward with documentation of the requirement. We always do. 🙂
Amelia,
Since you lack the time, I took the 5 minutes to look up the Florida statute on when autopsies are required. Here it is:
In any of the following circumstances involving the death of a human being, the medical examiner of the district in which the death occurred or the body was found shall determine the cause of death and shall, for that purpose, make or have performed such examinations, investigations, and autopsies as he or she shall deem necessary or as shall be requested by the state attorney:
(a) When any person dies in the state:
1. Of criminal violence.
2. By accident.
3. By suicide.
4. Suddenly, when in apparent good health.
5. Unattended by a practicing physician or other recognized practitioner.
6. In any prison or penal institution.
7. In police custody.
8. In any suspicious or unusual circumstance.
9. By criminal abortion.
10. By poison.
11. By disease constituting a threat to public health.
12. By disease, injury, or toxic agent resulting from employment.
(b) When a dead body is brought into the state without proper medical certification.
(c) When a body is to be cremated, dissected, or buried at sea.
(2)(a) The district medical examiner shall have the authority in any case coming under subsection (1) to perform, or have performed, whatever autopsies or laboratory examinations he or she deems necessary and in the public interest to determine the identification of or cause or manner of death of the deceased or to obtain evidence necessary for forensic examination.
(b) The Medical Examiners Commission shall adopt rules, pursuant to chapter 120, providing for the notification of the next of kin that an investigation by the medical examiner’s office is being conducted. A medical examiner may not retain or furnish any body part of the deceased for research or any other purpose which is not in conjunction with a determination of the identification of or cause or manner of death of the deceased or the presence of disease or which is not otherwise authorized by this chapter, part X of chapter 732, or chapter 873, without notification of and approval by the next of kin.
(3) The Medical Examiners Commission may adopt rules incorporating by reference parameters or guidelines of practice or standards of conduct relating to examinations, investigations, or autopsies performed by medical examiners.
Being cremated isn’t on the list.
Now, who were those credible journalists that made this statement? You seem rather reluctant to name names. In fact, you seem rather reluctant to do much research or provide many facts at all. You’re a font of unsourced information with enough time to create a 1,400 word post, but no time to actually back up anything you say?
So, you’ve heard Jackie Rhodes talk about bruises, the marriage, etc. I guess she’s really getting around these days. But, when actually in court and giving depositions she fails to mention these otherwise salient details. How strange. Perhaps being under oath and facing cross-examination has that effect. Also, if you read the testimony, you’ll see that it is the complete, unexpurgated testimony including objections, irrelevancies, etc. so this particular roadblock of yours also falls flat.
So, ball’s in your court Amelia and “Just Me”. Put up the relevant Florida laws/court decisions to back up your assertions or please retract your earlier statements. Only you can stop disinformation campaigns.
Posted by: jYt at March 29, 2005 08:50 AM
Just look at this horribly biased website that supports Amelia and “Just Me.” Florida District Six Medical Examiner? What a conservative rightwing religious nutjob! Talking about something they call “laws.” Humph. Like we enlightened people need anything like “laws”!
jYt — the statute says:
(c) When a body is to be cremated, dissected, or buried at sea.
Ahem.
Nonetheless, the statute doesn’t require an autopsy — it just gives the M.E. the authority to conduct one.
jYt–So why the personal attack on me? I have been extremely civil to you and would appreciate if you could exhibit enough maturity to do the same.
Since this is one of the most highly contested deaths in the history of the country, I do believe it would qualify under several of the specifications listed below. Try A.1. for starters.
But your ad hominem attack on me is totally unwarranted. I don’t play your little kiddie games like that.
Here is the Statute you said did not exist. That certainly is not my fault.
>>Cremation approval
(Florida Statutes 406.11(1)(c))
A. All requests for cremation, burial at sea, or donations must be approved by the Medical Examiner prior to the actual cremation.
1. Before authorizing the irretrievable disposal of a body by cremation, the Medical Examiner must be assured that no future question will arise about the cause or circumstances of the death of the individual.
2. The death, if previously unreported to the Medical Examiner, must first be verified as a non-Medical Examiner case according to Florida Statutes, 406.11.
B. Approval of a cremation, and accepting the responsibility for irretrievably destroying potential evidence, is a decision based on the quality of the information on the death certificate. The death certificate should be accompanied by a CREMATION APPROVAL FORM filled out by the attending physician to demonstrate that the death was due to natural causes. The cause of death on the death certificate must be sufficient to:
1. rule out trauma,
2. identify the immediate cause(s) of death, i.e. septicemia, peritonitis, bronchopneumonia, renal failure, etc., and
3. identify the underlying or proximate cause of death – the “due to” disease or injury responsible for initiating the lethal sequence of events.
C. The most common pitfalls this office encounters with causes of death are:
1. failure to state the underlying cause of death;
2. scrambling of immediate and underlying causes of death; and
3. listing extraneous data in the section entitled ‘Other Significant Conditions’. The section ‘Other Significant Conditions’ (Part II) should be used only for those conditions that contribute to death, but are unrelated to the cause(s) listed in Part I.
D. The CREMATION APPROVAL FORM is often helpful in clarifying the cause of death as well as providing additional medical history that assures that the death was not by violence.
Words like subdural, fracture, sepsis, fall, trauma, cardiac arrest, heart failure, hemiplegia, quadriplegia, paraplegia, and shock typically do not explain a natural death and often indicate a traumatic origin. It is necessary to rule out traumatic underlying causes or identify the natural disease processes,
back to medical examiner home page
So this is what you do when you are proven wrong? Instead of the nice apology you said you would use with regard to the Wolfson post, you attack the other poster personally? Nice, real class, and some how does not surprise me one bit.
Amelia
jYt, if you prefer it from your own post, wavemaker is correct, there it is right in Section 12.C. with the qualifying (2) (a) of in the public interest. Since we have people standing vigil outside the hospice, I think that would qualify as public interest to be considered.
>>12. By disease, injury, or toxic agent resulting from employment.
(b) When a dead body is brought into the state without proper medical certification.
(c) When a body is to be cremated, dissected, or buried at sea.
2)(a) The district medical examiner shall have the authority in any case coming under subsection (1) to perform, or have performed, whatever autopsies or laboratory examinations he or she deems necessary and in the public interest to determine the identification of or cause or manner of death of the deceased or to obtain evidence necessary for forensic examination.
But there’s your problem, right there, it’s your reading skills. No wonder you are just sooo confused. Be that as it may, it is still lame to launch a personal attack just because your facts are weak. Is that supposed to divert attention away from the fact that you are just plain wrong about this statute? Well, it doesn’t.
Amelia
SteveJ:
I am “sticky wet” about this issue?
I’d say that if those words by you are to be believed, you are dry, dead and decomposed.
Better to be fluid and in motion than dried out and, um, dust as you appear to be in your quite insane nonsense. You writing that statement about me reveals far more about you as nonsensical ‘source’ than anyone/thing else.
If World News Daily printed some one error in their story, so be it (while you have provided no substantiation about that allegation of yours — I have no idea as to the accuracy or inaccuracy but since it’s you who has suggested an inaccuracy, I would far believe World News Daily as source than I would you on this thread, and elsewhere for that matter) (you’ve proven yourself to be emotionally negating to and about the entire issue of Terri Schiavo and it makes no sense beyond any reasonable point of personal opinion, and what it does do is evidence your own morose and problematic psychology instead, but I bet you miss that).
About what JtT continues to hype here, he/she is stuck on some past point that despite being so, is past, is problematic, and is suggested to be corrupt, even. It is worth looking into the suggested suspect history surrounding Terri Schiavo. Which is all most everyone has been suggesting all along. Judges, legislators, courts…these all make errors, mistakes, even outright nonsense at times and just because there is a “history” of whatever, does not make it by automation truth, justice nor even accurate.
Courts only or should only rule based upon what is before them, what is allowed to be included in their decision, and upon precedence. Many decisions are disallowed upon appeal when even precedence is not taken into a decisiion process. Just saying, human decisions are not reliably, consistently always, without error.
It is nonsense to insist that simply because ten people concluded something and only their opinions were taken into consideration into a decision, that only those ten opinions bear merit.
Particuarly when there may be (and in Terri Schiavo’s case, there are) many higher numbers of options and opinions available and in existence.
The ONLY people focusing on fixed issues here also then conclude death to a severely disabled person based upon the heresay/opinion of someone else. Which is, in fact, nonsense.
Somehow the continued “opinions” about Terri Schiavo and suggesting capability to assist and provide information to the public by JtT seems very, very creepy.
I’d say that if there is any nonsense in this issue on Wizbang, it has and continues to originate from a group element on this site by the same users, JyT, SteveJ and a few others.
I am never surprised at the depths to which the American Civil Liberties U. goes to perpetuate the negative as the positive, that which is nonsense as sensible, and worse.
There is suggestion of wrong doing and misleading in the efforts to bring about Terri Schiavo’s death and how, and that’s adequate for our society to pursue the truth here, inorder to prevent similar behaviors on the behalf of others. I don’t find that too awfully profound a concept to grasp and it is even more curious (if not suspicious) why some persons display an aggressive need to disallow reconsiderations where Terri Schiavo and others like her are concerned.
IF she had made her wishes known, they’d have been respected. She didn’t and what Michael Schiavo has perpetuated is the belief in his own opinion. That George Felos has been involved in this case seems to be the non surprise.
Yes, Amelia, you are correct about that “personal attack” method you mention from jYt and others here, elsewhere, about Terri Schiavo.
Their entire reality depends upon that method. Otherwise, all that remains is their opinion. Meaning, the personal attack method is used when you have little else available as to information, reason.
Another thing: I notice jYt can only denigrate the information as to the “$750,000” malpractice award received by Michael Schiavo by dissing World News Daily as source.
If that’s not true, then please explain why you know otherwise, jYt, because, so far, that’s what I along with World News Daily have been able to find out about that malpractice award, and the series of events surrounding it.
So, you disagree with the source, the information that the source has presented, the award itself, what? Mistakes happen so please enlighten us as to your special information about this error, if it is an error, and why you consider it to be.
If it’s World News Daily alone as source that bothers you, please explain that. I mean, intersted persons are waiting with bated breath for your very important insights here. The rest of us saw past your insights quite a while ago.
Heartholder
“This woman has to be screaming from the inside for someone to help her.”
(after extraneous nonsense)
Les Nessman
None of us knows for sure.
Praxi (on Paltalk 🙂
Yes, however we have a first person account from Kate Adamson (and I believe others) about tube removal, hunger and pain. Of course if you really think that Terri is different, and doesn’t feel anything, I see a bridge out my window for sale.
There are also starvation and also dehydration victims in tsunami disasters, nazi death camps, peace corp and others who offer us evidence.
There is 0 question of the cause of death. Terri Schiavo is dying of dehydration. Seeing as how the media is covering every second of this, I don’t think that there will be any question of the cause of death.
And yes, the medical examiner could demand this autopsy. Do we actually have any evidence that he was going to, since there is absolutely no question of the cause of death?
-S-, I think I recall reading the GAL report from whatsisname regarding where the settlement money went and was spent….The 750k went into a medical trust, and MS agreed to put (the rest of) his 300k in a charity….don’t have time to look it up, but there was some inquiry into it by GAL.
wavemaker-the 750k went into a medical trust, but at some point, the judge permitted Michael to use the trust money to pay for the attorney fees. Some estimate that better than half the trust money paid for attorney fees, the other half to medical fees.
Don’t worry about the autopsy, jYt. The State’s Attorney General has ordered it be done. I doubt even Judge Greer would ignore that. And the statute does not say just questions about the cause of death. It refers to evidence being destroyed and other measures to consider.
My main concern about that is that the County Medical Examiner may not have the expertise required to deal with complex neurological issues. I do hope there are consults with experts in the field in this regard as well as representation from both sides involved so we do not have more of the one-way express this has become.
wavemaker and Just Me: well, what you suggest there is exactly what was described in that World News Daily article, along with even more information about how and to whom what money went and why.
Seems that there is still a sizable investment that will go to both Michael Schiavo and Felos once Terri Schiavo is dead, that remains from that initial award having been invested afterward, less what Michael Schiavo spent and what Felos managed to connive from it, along with his many monies pocketed from the ACLU. The thing I found intersting and really disgusting was that Felos had an aspect to his contract created that he gets paid a fee for his “media work” on “behalf” of (Michael) Schiavo. Thus, it explains the huge media push by Felos and that includes his quite creepy, icky, disgusting “death is beautiful” drech on televisiion just the other day. He gets paid to promote Terri Schiavo’s death and seems he’s been paid well to do that. Now if he can ONLY GET HER TO DIE…then he can further use the media to further bill for hours/services to further explain away and away and away and away and…
Thanks for your comments but early on, this thread, the pro-deathers reamed the World News Daily as being an unacceptable source and what you write as being something they couldn’t accept…while I can find nothing from them to support their incredulous dissing.
Amelia: me, also. Who conducts what type of autopsy is very significant, along with how and to what extent it is documented what has taken place.
RE: Amelia’s post March 29, 2005 08:24 PM
My main concern about that is that the County Medical Examiner may not have the expertise required to deal with complex neurological issues.
The ME may be better able to review the tissue than a neurologist. They’ll have at their disposal forensics experts and pathologists to review material. Neurologists will be better with living tissue. The ME will be better with dead tissue. Tissue changes dramatically when normal metabolic processes end. A ME will be more than qualified to define and describe anatomical deformation of the forebrain and hindbrain.
SO WHY IS MR. SCHAIVO NOT PROSECUTED,YES, STUPID PEOPLE INTERFERING WITH OTHER PEOPLE’S LIVES,THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER MIND OF AMERICA,THATS WHAT YOU SILLY GEEKS SOUND LIKE, I BET YOU BELIEVED IN THE “WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, AND THAT SADDAM WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR 9/11. WHY ARENT’ YOU DUMBASSES CRYING ABOUT THE 2,000 DEAD YOUNG AMERICANS KILLED IN A WAR CREATED BY LIES AND A LIAR/MURDERER,YOU ARE SO CONCERNED WITH A BRAIN DEAD WOMAN, YET WE ARE IN VIETNAM FOLKS,WAKE UP!!! LISTEN UP YOU DUMB NOSY BUSYBODY MORALISTS. IF YOU DON’T LIKE THE LAWS OF THIS COUNTRY, CHANGE THEM. THE LAW NOW IS ,IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A LIVING WILL, YOUR FAMILY DECIDES THE RIGHT TO DIE ISSUES, IF YOU ARE MARRIED, AND HEAR ME YOU STUPID IDIOTS, IF YOU ARE MARRIED, YOU SPOUSE DECIDES, GET IT, GOT IT, GOOD!!!. NOW ,IF YOU CHANGE THE LAW,REALIZE WHAT CAN HAPPEN. LETS SAY TERRI’S FAMILY WANTS HER TO GO TO GOD, OK, AND THE HUSBAND IS SOME “CHRISTIAN” KOOK WHO WANTS HER TO LIVE FOR ANOTHER 50YRS, WITHOUT EVER BEING ABLE TO SWALLOW,EAT,OR THINK, OR KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON. I GUESS YOU MORONS WILL BE OUT THERE CALLING THE PARENTS OF TERRI “MURDERERS”, I THINK NOT. NOW , FINALLY, STAY OUT OF OUR LIVES, THIS IS ALL CRAP ABOUT TERRI’S CONDITIONS, THE BROKEN BONES,ECT. WE MAY NEVER KNOW, I HAVE WORKED IN A HOSPITAL FOR 27YRS, AND SOMETIMES THE CARE PROVIDERS ACCIDENTALLY HARM THESE PEOPLE, SOMETIMES NO ONE KNOWS WHAT REALLY HAPPENS IN THESE CASES. THE BOTTOM LINE IS, IT IS NONE OF OUR DAMN BUSINESS, SO IF YOU WANT TO CHANGE THE LAWS, CHANGE THEM, OTHERWISE SHUT UP AND KEEP READING YOUR STUPID MYSTERY NOVELS, AND LEAVE THE COURTS,HOSPICES,FAMILIES ALONE,GET IT, GOT IT GOOD,