Our recent discussions about Islam and the whole cartoon-Mohammed mess has prompted some rather profound and insightful observations. It also drew the attention of “Kashif Ahmad,” a self-proclaimed Muslim who repeatedly presented his side of the argument most cogently and reasonably. I have to respect him for that.
In fact, I respect it so much, I’m going to take one of his comments and look at it most carefully.
I for one would never be an apologist for the actions of any Saudi or Egyptian terrorist. Reason is simply I have almost as much in common with a person from Saudi/Egypt as an American would have with someone from Yugoslavia. Nothing.
Actually, America has quite a few ties with the former Yugoslavia. For one, a lot of Americans can trace their ancestry to Yugoslavia. For another, several thousand Americans have served in the former Yugoslavia over the last decade — most notably protecting Muslims there from being slaughtered. Many bled and died there. Perhaps you ought to choose another nation? Good luck — Americans come from all over the world, and we have ties to nearly every nation. Much like we often hear cries about the 1 billion Muslims who are all insulted by these cartoons.
OnDrummer on the note why you are not allowed to prostelize in countries like SA. Prostelizing is not an in-alienable human right. If we expect others to respect us we must respect them, and the surest way to kill any conversation with a person is to say you are going to enternal damnation if you don’t believe in Christ. It is their law and their country we must respect that.
Yes, Kashif. You must respect “their law and their country.” In the West, we enshrine the right to speak freely as one of the most sacred precepts of freedom. There is no law against blasphemy in Denmark, or the United States. It is our principle that the government should stay out of matters of faith. But that hasn’t stopped the riots and open acts of war against Denmark, has it? So much for having respect for others’ countries and others’ laws.
The same way no one will give a damn about a fatwa passed in Iran in any western country, we cannot reverse it around either.
Tell that to Salman Rushdie, still under a death sentence. Or Theo Van Gogh — but you’ll have to dig him up, and I don’t think his corpse will be persuaded by your arguments. They know full well the power of fatwas issued in Iran, and how much effect they can be outside their borders.
Kashif also brings up the Crusades. Yeah, it can be argued that the Crusades were Christianity run amok. Hell, for the sake of argument, I’ll even grant every single point he made about it.
But Kashif, the Crusades ended well over 700 years ago. People looking for more recent examples of Christian extremism find themselves citing the Nazis (who co-opted a few elements of Christianity, blended with strong Paganist elements, to push their race-based, tyrannical ideology) or the Ku Klux Klan (who were also far more interested in race than religion, except in how they could use Christianity to support their feeble ideology).
But back to the Crusades. As I noted above, they ended over 700 years ago. Christianity grew up.
Judaism also had its imperialist, expansionist, conquering era. It ended once they possessed the Holy Land.
It seems that major religions (at least the Big Three, that all come from the Middle East) have their “adolescence,” But Judaism and Christianity outgrew those, and matured into the faiths that they are today.
Some people say we need to give Islam its chance to grow and mature as well. They say that it, too, will outgrow this phase, and truly become a religion of peace.
Personally, I’m tired of waiting. The “patience” and “tolerance” people call for is being measured in dead bodies. Dead Danes, dead Netherlanders, dead Londoners, dead Americans, dead Parisians, dead Israelis.
And most of all, dead Muslims. I think it’s fair to say that radical Islam has killed more of its own than any other group.
So before we all long like I said outside the window, lets all of us look at the mirrors.
Perhaps, Kashif. But instead of gazing narcissistically at yourself, perhaps you ought to look around at your fellow Muslims. Those who are currently wreaking havoc around the globe over some CARTOONS, and those who sit silently and let those radicals claim to be the voice of Islam. The loudest voice often prevails, and there is a severe dearth of those who would challenge them.
Mac Lorry:)
BINGO!!!. Look up this sight http://wwwnmhschool,or/thornton/sayyid_qutb.htm
My theory is right on.
Thanks again for piquing my interest by asking me the above questions. It really is enjoyable to engage in this banter.
Robin,
Much of the cordial nature of our exchange is due to your own respectful comments. When disrespectful, insulting or arrogant posts are directed at me individually or by association, I’m known to respond in the same way. Just as you expressed “I would truly appreciate it if you do not try to twist my words.”, which I don’t believe you intended for me, I too respond strongly when someone recasts my words into a meaning I didn’t intend, and then argues against that recast statement. I just didn’t want to mislead you into thinking I’m always nice, as others I have spared with don’t feel that way.
Back on topic. I read your posts and much of what you linked to (your link needed a bit of editing to get to the page). Here’s something Sayyid Qutb said that got my attention.
The phrase “to provide mankind with such high ideals and values as have so far remained undiscovered by mankind” as something only Islam possesses seems absurd to my western way of thinking. Obviously, we can’t debate ideals and values not yet discovered by mankind, but it seems Islam is ill suited to adopt any new ideals or values being it’s frozen forever in the past.
The phrase “with a way of life which is harmonious with human nature” may be true for fundamentalist Islam given my view of human nature. As a Christian I view human nature as the base behavior that has the world in the mess it’s in. Christians are called to transcend human nature and strive to be more like what God calls us to be, not what our fallen nature produces.
One of the questions you see asked when there’s another terrorist attach in the name of Islam, is why don’t the moderate Muslims speak out strongly against this perversion of their religion? From what you said, the answer seems to be that moderate Muslims are more of a target than anyone else. That’s an awesome statement given that the only reason moderate Muslims are a target is because of their brand of Islam. That makes the terrorists religious bigots in addition to all their other failings. In places like Iraq, the terrorists can only survive by hiding among the very people they hate. Little wonder they don’t care when they set off a bomb that kills other Muslims. The press has missed the fact that there’s a religious war going on between moderate and fundamentalist Muslims.
Mac Lorry:)
Hope you don’t mind me continuing to use that icon because I want to make it clear why I think you are a “nice guy.” It is simply because you have been willing to engage in a respectful dialog and I truly appreciate it. Just like you, I’m not such a nice person either when my toes get stepped on so I can relate. On the other hand, I REALLY do appreciate your thirst for knowledge concerning this matter and that’s the crux of my take on you.
I have no idea how to put little boxes around things, so let me just say that your last paragraph was YOUR Bingo moment. You said what I am trying to say and that is truly a good point in any dialog which will segway into the following:
(Just a note to you, I am a former high school government/history teacher but it’s been quite a while since I’m a stay at home mom)
You so correctly stated in a prior post that the West has advanced as far as it has because we do not have a marriage of church and state. I might also add that although we have inculcated Judeo/Christian values into our OWN constitution, a those with opposing views are protected. This is PRECISELY what makes our country so wonderful and on that we very much agree.
Saudi Arabia (which I continue to refer to for the reason that the Western media always points to the hijackers being Saudi) has not been afforded this luxury. Referring to my prior history lesson above, Saudi Arabia was united by a triad of Al-Saud/Wahabi/business. What has happened to this most fragile of alliance was the advent of the riches accrued from oil. Up until the seventies, the Kingdom was very much a backwater third country. When ARAMCO was natioalized, the profits were the catalyst for the dispute amongst the three parties. The Al-Sauds recruited those from the educated business elte to run their country while they accrued riches and began living a very un-wahabi type existance. The business elite too began accruing great wealth, traveling, spending money abroad and acting abroad in a very un-wahabi type manner. The Wahabis were being edged out of the alliance and were PISSED. As I said before, this was the point I was there. So what were the Wahabis to do? Enter the ideas of the Islamic Brotherhood. Remember me saying that my own brother-in-law dabbled with it, got real nutty, and was quickly debriefed by the family. What I am not mentioning here are those parties who were no part of the triangle of power who had always been disinfranchized. Who better for them to turn to than the rebel jihadists who were against the other two?
I have to add in here a point on the conjecture that radical Islam has been funded by the Saudis in their support for the madrasas in Pakistan. This is VERY possible because one of the tenets of Islam is to give Zakat, a portion of your wealth to the mosque. This is not the same as our own Christianity where we can give to the denomination of our choice. In this case, ALL the mosques are Wahabi. Imagine, it’s a rule to give your tithe, but you have NO say in where it goes.
More history: In the early eighties and into the nineties, there were several uprisings by the minority Shiia in the Eastern province. These were quickly put down and the imams inprisoned. But think about what was going on next door in Iran. These religios zealots in Saudi were impowered by the success of the Ayotolla. When I was there NO females in my family covered their faces. Within five years of the Iranian revolution this was no longer the case. They didn’t start doing so because they thought it was fashionable, but rather because the religious police were being bought off by the Al-Sauds and were given much more power
YOUR Bingo statement came in your very last statement, “There’s a religious war going on between moderate and fundamentalist Muslims”.
I can tell you that now the Kingdom looks very much like a country undersiege. My ex is remarried (Austrian this time) and has two daughters. He has moved them to Bahrain for their own safety and travels the causeway back and forth to work. When he travels in Europe he NEVER anounces even to a cab driver that he is Saudi because he is so paranoid of these nuts.
This is really the whole point that I have been trying to get across to anyone reading here.
Yes, there is a schism going on right now and the war is over the very essence of Islam. Do I think it is backward? Well, I can only say that my own experience was with a
highly educated, warm and accepting group of people and they happen to be Moslems. Do I think Islam is backward if you judge it by these crazies take on their religion, ABSOLUTELY.
Thank you Mac again for listening. I hope you take what I have shared with you with the intention it was given, with complete sincerity and appreciation.
Mac Lorry:) just some additions—
You’re correct in saying the above “twisting of words” statement was NOT meant for you. It was meant for anyone else who is a witness to this very public albeit niche dialog.
I think you are correct in feeling that Islam is absurd to claim the only means by which to reach this enlightenment, I think that the statement is indicative of most religions, as well as our own Christianity. But I don’t really want to get into a “I’m right, you’re wrong arguement” because I believe most religions are geocentric. Suffice it to say, what you are exposed to is what you espouse to.
It’s interesting that you incapsulated that quote because it makes this movement seem quite reasonable. But don’t be fooled, it’s these nuts of the Islamic Brotherhood who were responsible for Abdul Nasser’s and Sadat’s assassinations. They have been at work in Egypt for MANY years and are Egypt’s more secular government FLY IN THE OINTMENT. These are VERY VERY VERY BAD people who advocate violence through their interpretation of the Koran. But just like any major religion, there are major differences of belief which can fall to the generalism of the overall umbrella discription. It is this very generalization of Islam as a violent religion that I am opposing. Again, the proof is in the pudding that MOST Moslems are NOT violent. Otherwise we’d have a much bigger problem on our hands than we do now since their percentage of the world population is increasing. The problem may come though if more and more marginal moderate Moslems are pushed over the edge by the bigotry targeted at them. That is exactly what I am fighting against because this truly is a fight within Islam itself and we need to know which one’s are our sworn enemies and which one’s are not
Mac Lorry,
please exchange above statement “movement seem quite reasonable” to: movement quite peaceful. I think where the problem comes in with any religious disagreement is when one religion espouses superiority. They then take that superiority stance and use it as an ends that justifies the means. No, don’t get me wrong, I don’t think every religion uses violence ALL the time. But when it is necessary to fall back on the old reliability of being superior to your enemy, it is used as a wedge that I don’t think the God I know would ever intend. As a student of history myself, I cannot think of any religion that was not hooked up to evil at one time or another. But then that’s just the academic in me speaking.
Darn, I wish I could go back and edit once I post because my busy little brain keeps working
Robin,
Thanks for your detailed answers. I wonder what the difference is between fundamentalists Islam and the Islam of moderates? Is it just in the interpretation of the Koran or are there other writings only one group believes are sacred?
I’ve heard that the reward in the hereafter for male Muslims is 70 virgins, but what’s the reward for female Muslims?
Finally, what’s the difference between the terms Moslem and Muslim?
Just so I have something to offer here, you mentioned you didn’t know how to put quotes in boxes.
To put text in boxes use (blockquote) at the start of the text and (/blockquote) at the end. However, substitute the less than character (it won’t print) for “(” and substitute “>” for “)” Also make sure you put the slash / at the beginning of the ending blockquote. Use the Preview button when you try this so you can see if it’s correct before posting. It can be a real mess if you get it wrong. If you do it right it looks as follows:
Mac Lorry:)
There you go making me WORK my little brain again, thanks for the exercise. I’m going to be quick on this one though.
Islamic Fundamentalism: The best definition of this that I found is here: http://www.religiousintolerance.org/reac_ter9.htm
If you have a problem with the sight, refer to article on the site called Religious Terminology: “Fundamentalism” in Christianity & Islam. You’re a really quick read (compliment) and after you read it I’ll give you my prime example of my defense that not all fundamentalists are terrorists.
Heaven: Now you DONE it (kidding) by bringing up the “heaven” thing. I can tell you that the very definition of fundamentalism means that one takes their religion literally. I do know though that there are scholars within Islam who believe that the passages in the Koran should be taken metaphorically rather than literally. The best example I could give you is my own Catholic faith which does NOT take the Bible literally. With an offer to you and no offense taken, I officially became Catholic two three years ago BECAUSE I could hang with this. My ex, even though schooled in fundamentalism and abroad in Alexandria from age seven, also took a metaphorical approach to Islam. Like I said, I avoid the “heaven” subject but I must let you know that my own priest told us that the Catholic faith believes that other non-believers can enter heaven by their deeds. This I can also hang with because I PERSONALLY think the judgement of heaven is God’s alone. PLEASE PLEASE don’t take this as a challenge, but rather an offer of a trepidicious answer to the one question I really prefer to avoid due to my respect for others beliefs.
Muslim vs. Moslem: That’s a good question. I think it has something more to do with pronounciation. Moslems themselves pronounce the word “Mooslim” with the oo sounding similar to the oo in book. Since all Moslems worldwide read the Koran in Arabic, despite thier given language, I think it is probably a better spelling.
Little boxes and such: Thanks so much for the tip but I just couldn’t figure it out without an actual human body here to walk me through. My neighbor is a computer GENIUS and I’m going to have him show me. It would be very nice to be able to post in a better format than I am for sure.
Note: When you read the above site I referred to, pay special heed to Karen Armstrong’s definition of fundamentalism. I do NOT think hers is a derogatory definition and I’ll tell you why if you disagree later.
With that, have a wonderful day and notice the time of this post, I’ve got a long one ahead of me but looking forward to your reply
Bye!
Mac Lorry:)
Forgot about the time difference on this thing. It’s three hours earlier for me!
Mac Lorry,
Haven’t heard from you yet but I have another assignment 🙂 for you. I found a great site that gives alot of information in a concise and easily readable format. Here goes:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/said/cron. If you have a problem navigating it’s titled Chronology, the House of Saud. I’ll give you a hint at my perspective that you should look for if you read this article: the day I departed the US for Lebanon to meet my then future husband was March 25, 1975. If you connect the dots you will see what I walked into a long time ago as a 20 year old very naive American looking for a “magic carpet ride”.
Mac Lorry,
Here I go bugging you again, but if you scan the above Saudi article you will notice (I think 1992) a picture of some Saudi women driving. My ex’s first cousin was one of them and was under house arrest for many years thereafter. Again, a hint at where I come from.
Robin,
I was able to locate the pages even though the URLs you provided are incorrect. You must be typing them in rather than copying the URL from the browser and pasting it in. Just for anyone else who would like this information here are the correct links:
RELIGIOUS TERMINOLOGY
Chronology, the House of Saud
I see what you mean that, while Islamic terrorists are fundamentalists, not all Islamic fundamentalists are terrorists, and I agree.
Just a bit about fundamentalism. As a fundamentalist born again Christian I believe the books that make up the Protestant Bible as they were originally written and in the context of the time they were written, are the true and inerrant word of God. Errors in understanding occur when these books are translated into other languages and read within the context of our times. The Bible can only be correctly interpreted with a comprehensive understanding of the entire Bible and the times and languages in which it was written. A quick example is that ancient Hebrew didn’t divide verbs into permissive and causative forms. Where a passage in English says God caused something it’s just as accurate to read it as God permitted something. Knowing just that one rule puts the Old Testament in a whole different light.
I take the whole Bible as God’s Word simply because to do otherwise you have to decide for yourself which parts are God’s word and which are not. If you don’t like a passage about something you can just ignore it. The problem is that your guide as to what is or is not God’s Word is likely your own fallen nature. How then can God’s Word impart wisdom to one who’s guide is their own foolishness.
Nevertheless, salvation is a treasure of limitless value that no descendent of Adam can hope to afford, yet by the riches of God’s mercy it’s offered freely as a gift, paid for in full and for all eternity by the shed Blood of God’s Holy Son. All that’s required is for a person to affirmatively receive it; it’s so simple only the proud of heart can’t grasp it. Just make sure you don’t leave this life without it because it’s not offered in the age to come.
Just a little of that fire breathing you referred to.
Peace!
Mac!!!!!
I gave you the wrong address above. It’s
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter9.htm
I wonder if slipping in the “in” was a freaudian slip!!!!
Mac!!!!!
I gave you the wrong address above. It’s
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reac_ter9.htm
I wonder if slipping in the “in” was a freaudian slip!!!!
Mac Lorry:)
Can I add “smart and helpful” to my beforementioned superlatives concerning you? It took me many years, 48 to be precise, to take a leap of faith and come to much the same conclusion and accept the words of the Bible into my heart. I have attended several Bible studies and know about the differences in translations as well as the importance of relating them to time and audience addressed. You didn’t mention if you read the Saudi article, but let me explain why I offered it. In the following, I will share with you a part of me that has changed my life forever.
March 25, 1975. My friends, family, and future brother-in-law took me to the airport to fly to Lebanon to meet my fiancee. Back then, you could not make a direct overseas call to Saudi without placing it and waiting for hours.
My flight in LA was postponed, which meant that I had to spend the night at a Heathrow hotel. I was absolutely scared crazy because I had never been overseas, let alone by myself. When I arrived in London I went to the hotel and then down to the coffee shop. It was there that I heard King Faisal had been shot and that all Saudi Airline flights out of Saudi had been cancelled. What was I to do? I had to call my brother-in-law in LA and he said to continue on and his mother and sisters would me in Beirut.
My husband flew in by private plane the next day and we were married April 1 (don’t laugh, it’s true) He left back to Saudi eight days later without me to get my visa in order.
It was on the 10th of April that the first incident of the Lebanese Civil War occured. A schoolbus was blown up by Moslem extremists. Now the problems in Lebanon stem from the inbalance of power, Moslems being in the majority, but the constitution stating that the President must be a Maronite Christian, the prime minister a Sunni and the next guy down a Shiia. (I’m just telling you this so you get the background, not that ANY reason in the world should be a cause of such violence)
As the months wore on, the war increased in violence. The shops were open during the day, but it was still very dangerous to venture out. One time we were walking down the street and had to dive under a car to avoid being killed. Another time the supermarket across the street was bombed and all our windows blew out. Yet another time from the balcony we saw a jeep with a machine-gun on top chase a group of individuals and murder them all. The days were fairly calm, but the nights were spent in terror.
I was young, very young, only 20. There was no way to call home and very little mail. And I had to be taken care of by my Moslem family, fundamentalists that they were. I had to learn Arabic in quick fashion, learn to eat new foods, and all this with absolute chaos going on around me. I was SCARED!
In July of that year we had to leave because of my mother-in-laws’ mother died in Bahrain. The problem was getting to the airport. This was a VERY risky venture because the airport was opened, closed, and opened all the time. We lived in a Moslem area, but would have to go through a Christian area, another Moslem area, then another Christian area to get there. We were five women, one 2-year old child, and a driver. We had to make a plan to get there safely and this is the way we did it. OUr family driver was a Christian and somehow, we would get there alive he assured us. The first checkpoint that we came to was Moslem. No problem, my mother-in-law spoke to the rag-tag soldier pointing a gun at us. The Next checkpoint was Christian. Here a teen-aged boy held his machine gun inside the car and let us through. Next check point, Moslem, again no problem. Last checkpoint is where the BIG SCARY thing happened.
The Christian militia we encountered made us all get out of the car. Our driver was speaking for us but the soldier knew he was lying. I thought surely this is NOT happening. For what seemed like an eternity they talked. A sum of money was agreed upon and we again were safely on our way.
Why am I telling you this? Because it is a metaphor I am offering for what I wish all the world could have. Seven of us in a car, all of different faiths, all risking our lives to reach a destiny, protecting eachother, against the hatred we encountered.
Mac, there are a lot of people who can read this, and I feel kind of “naked” putting this out there. At the end of the day though, all of the good and kind people in the world of whatever faith have to endure life’s hardships. Some are much easier than others. Some in the areas of the world that are ravaged by this have to put up with it on a daily basis. The above story and my entire experience is WHY I rage against the intolerance of Islam and the bigotry targeted at them. Every time I hear “rag-head”, “Camel-jockey” or worse, I cry. I am but one person, but there are so many more like me out there who have had these same experiences.
If I have gone on too long, please forgive me. This has been a wonderful and fulfilling conversation with you. But I feel like I’m getting way too emotional and I hope you can understand.
Don’t know quite what to say, but here it is:
The above story I didicate to Mac Lorry, Kashif, Ryan, and all those with the willingness of heart and ear to have listened to my message.
Thank you, Peace and Ma’Salama
Robin,
I did follow the links you gave and read them. I thank you for sharing your feelings in such a public forum, and I know that’s not an easy thing to do. You have not only earned my respect, but your honest account of the things you lived through with the help of people of all faiths is a compelling argument for greater tolerance and the quest for peace in the world. I know I can’t fully appreciate the nightmare you lived through, but I can empathize with you and all the millions upon millions of people who have been subjected to the terrors of war for several millennium. Most of the population of the U.S. has been spared that terror in living memory and perhaps that makes us too quick to support war.
You have given me much to ponder and I’ll ask no more of you on this topic.
Peace!
Mac Lorry,
Thank you. Ours has been a deep and inspiring discussion for me. You gave me the respect that allowed me to share this with you and for that I am truly greatful. You said that others didn’t think you were so nice, but maybe they just never “got in the car” with you for a ride, even if it was just for a short while. You are definitely a man of integrity and speak from your heart and well-honed brain. I acknowledge fully that I too have much to ponder from this exchange and that could only have come from your sharing of your own values which you hold dear.
And for Kashif, who this blog was created in the first place, I hope that he might read this and see that we BOTH honored him with a good debate. I wish him, and all those living with the hatred spewed at them, of WHATEVER faith, peace, harmony and understanding found through seeking those values ourselves and living them in our own daily lives.
Thank you Mac, I found you a very gentle dragon.