Recently, in a thread discussing the latest Al Qaeda terrorist threats, one commenter dredged up the appalling tactic of moral relativism, where he implied that we couldn’t condemn the links between Islam and terrorism, because as we all know, Christians have done some pretty hideous things in the name of their faith, too.
(For the record: I don’t consider myself a Christian. I was raised Methodist, and have had considerable exposure to other faiths, including Judaism, but call myself a “born-again agnostic.” But as an outsider, I feel I can bring some “objective” perspective to the question. And this isn’t the first time I’ve done this sort of thing; I have major issues with the Catholic Church, but felt compelled to speak up on the election of Pope Benedict.)
I challenged him to cite ten incidents of Christian-inspired terrorism from the last twenty years. To be more precise, “Unless you’d care to cite say, ten incidents of Christian-inspired terrorism in the last twenty years. Terrorist incidents where the terrorists proclaimed that they were doing it for Jesus, and significant numbers of Christians either refused to denounce it, or said it was “provoked.”
He reworked it to the last 40 years, and came up with this list:
- 1-3. Eric Robert Rudolph’s bombings of abortion clinics in 1997 and 1998, plus his bombing of a gay nightclub in 1997. In case you doubt his religious intent, from one of his letters sent to authorities after the bombings: “We declare and will wage total war on the ungodly communist regime in New York and your legislative bureaucratic lackey’s in Washington. It is you who are responsible and preside over the murder of children and issue the policy of ungodly perversion thats destroying our people.”
Eric Rudolph. One lone wacko, not an organized group.
- 4-23. The KKK (a “white Christian” organization) firebombed 20 black churches in Mississippi during the summer of 1964.
19 incidents in one summer 40 years ago. And the backlash was immense.
- 24. The firebombing of Vernon Dahmer’s house by the KKK in 1966. He had offered to allow blacks to pay the poll tax at his store.
Same bit, with the Klan.
- 25. The murder of Barnett Slepian, an abortion doctor, by James Charles Kopp in 1998.
Again, one lone wacko, with no organization behind him. And more of an “issue” crime than a “religious movement” issue. He wasn’t fighting a perceived enemy of Christianity, but one who opposed a single issue that has far more repercussions outside of religion.
- 26. The Atiak massacre in Uganda by the “Lord’s Resistance Army” (a Christian rebel group) in 1995. Around 200 civilians were killed. According to the Christian Science Monitor, a “field commander” for the LRA allegedly told one of his troops “that an angel ordered the massacre.”
27. About 100 refugees were killed at attacks on the Achol-pi Refugee Settlement by the LRA in 1996.
28. Another twenty refugees were killed in a separate attack by the LRA at the same settlement in 2002.
29. Also in 1996, the LRA abducted 152 girls from St. Mary’s College in Aboke. After negotiations, 109 of them were later released.
30. In Kitgum in 1997, the LRA killed another 412 civilians.
Not familiar with this group, so I’ll let it slide. I suspect, though, the differences that prompted these acts are less theological and more tribal.
- 31. The 2002 Soweto bombings in South Africa by a group called The Warriors of the Boer Nation. In an email where the group claimed responsibility for the bombings, they referred to themselves as “fighters for God and the Boer people”.
Another group that I’ve never heard of before, but casual research shows them more a white-supremacist group than a religious movement. Racial, not theological.
- 32. In 2000, a group known as “God’s Army” took over a hospital in Burma, holding 750 patients and medical staff hostage. They threatened to detonate two bombs if their demands were not met. God’s Army is a splinter group from the Christian Karen National Union.
Another I’ll grant, pending further research.
But my point is simple: yes, all religions have committed atrocities in their past. It’s part and parcel of the package. But the important thing is that the great religions outgrow that stage.
The first Jews were brutal and relentless in their early days. Go and read the accounts of the conquest and settlement of the Holy Land. But they’ve settled down remarkably since then, to the point where they make it damned difficult to convert, and “evangelical Jew” is one of my favorite oxymorons. Some even say that they’ve grown too peaceful and tolerant, and point to centuries of persecution — and I have a hard time arguing that point.
Christianity started out as brutally oppressed, but eventually conquered their oppressors and became the dominant faith in Europe. Then they found out that it’s good to be on top of the food chain, and started such wonderful innovations as the Inquisition, the Crusades (a debatable action, but it is indisputable that a lot of bad things were done in their name), and the like. But again, they outgrew it. There’s no more “conversion by the sword,” and nations that are predominantly Christian tend to be the most hospitable to other faiths.
Islam, however, is still in its violent, conquering stage. I hope they’ll outgrow it, but I’m not willing to bet on it happening any time soon. And to point out that it can be dangerous to not be Muslim in a Muslim land isn’t racism, it’s simple fact. Beheadings are a fact of life, as are routine discriminations and other assaults. In Saudi Arabia, Christians are forbidden from openly revealing their faith (a perverted version of “don’t ask, don’t tell”), and Jews are outright forbidden from entering at all. “Terrorist” isn’t quite synonymous with “Muslim extremist,” but it’s the safest bet before more details are known. When that nutjob shot up the mall in Tacoma, Washington yesterday, who didn’t immediately think it was an Islamist?
As I said, I hope they’ll outgrow it, and soon. But in the meantime, I’m not going to bet on it happening.
And to compare Islam and Christianity when citing the role of religion as a threat to the peace is not only insulting, blind, and stupid, it’s just plain wrong.
Hmmmm.
The Karen are a rebel group seeking the overthrow of the Burmese government and the creation of an ethnic “homeland”. It has nothing to do with Christianity.
Again this is a rebel group seeking the overthrow of the South African government because they feel they’re being oppressed by black rule. It has nothing to do with Christianity.
…
Frankly all of these examples are rather idiotic. They’re mostly all either rebel groups or racist organizations with minimal ties, if any, to Christianity. Certainly none have direct ties to mainstream Christian sects or organizations.
What is clearly interesting is that there are no examples of the Pope advocating the beheading of captives. The Pope approving of homicide bombings and etc.
And that is the essential difference between Islam and Christianity and it most definitely underscores the lack of substance in that poster’s argument.
You make great points here, but I feel the need to point something out. According to the Bible, once peace comes to the Middle East it’ll all be over, anyway.
I see peace coming by one way only. That is only when Islam outgrows what you’re speaking about here. Food for thought.
You cannot call the KKK a Christian organization. It was the political enforcement arm of the Democrat Party in the South. Senator Byrd has said that he joined the KKK so he could move up the ladder in the Democrat Party.
Remember that Blacks were voting Republican in those days and had the numbers to throw Democrats out of office in certain localities. The KKK terrorized these Republicans so they would not vote.
Don’t forget to mention why the Crusades started, JT. I guess the Muslims in Israel decided it would be fun to kill/drive out all the Jews and Christians and desecrate their holy sites. Hence the whole “taking back the Holy Land” thing.
The LRA in Uganda are really brutal, and really, really strange. No one can figure out quite what they want. Their leader is a mystery. They kidnap children into their army all the time and force them to fight.
They claim to be Christian. Now, if they claimed to be Muslim, there’d be worldwide fundraisers for them, just as there are for the Taliban, al-Qaeda, Hamas, etc.; Saudi Arabia’s fine citizens send billions to such “charity” annually. But they claim to be Christian. Outside Christians look at them in horror and condemn them.
THAT’s the difference.
Ever notice that Christian charities help everyone, but Islamic charities help only Islamic people, and make it very clear that that is their mission, not helping people in general? Sure, some Christain charities are evangelical (some much more than others), but they’ll feed you and give you medicine no matter what.
The atheists have got all the religions beat. They executed 80,000,000.
Thank you Joe, for pointing out the main difference between Christianity and the “Religion of Peace.” The KKK and South African groups claim to have christian “beliefs”, but they use this perversion to justify their ends which are RACIAL, not religious.
I’m very anti-abortion because I feel it is the wrongful taking of an actual life. I think Kopp and Rudolph are both guilty of the same thing. I think 99.999% of pro-lifers would agree with me. Whether or not those nutcases said God was on thier side or not is irrelevant.
CAIR and other Islamic groups do not condemn the butchering of Jewish schoolchildren by Hamas and other racist hategroups. Not until the recent Jordanian murders have large groups of Muslims protested act done in the name of their religion, and then only because they suffered. Islam cannot be taken as a serious religion until conservatives of the faith condemn the slaughter of innocents.
Like the song goes, “How bizarre, how bizarre.”
One wonders whether the commenter in question would claim that, in the 19th Century, the Taiping Rebellion (which resulted in several million dead as it raged throughout China) should be laid at the feet of Christianity, since the Chinese rebel leader believed he was Jesus Christ’s younger brother?
Jay,
The response to his list is… another list.
Of crimes by people claiming Islam as their religion… from the past 40 years. Um. 4 years. Ok, how about the past _month_.
This may take serious research, many of these are not immediately placed into the ‘Jihadist’ column. Witness the beltway snipers – extensive notebooks, but deliberately distanced from Islam regardless of available facts.
One tiny little fact about the Lord’s Resistance Army: they’re directly supported, financially and militarily, by the very militant Islamic Sudanese government.
In return, the LRA fights against internal rebels in Sudan and makes moves into Uganda that can be officially denied, while their leader spouts off a few carefully-selected Bible quotes. They’re really a tribal movement, too, with the leaders all coming from the Acholi tribe.
This generally all reduces down to the fact that in those who are searching with ulterior motive to justify behaviors and choices that are defined by Christianity as condemning of one’s immortal soul, any ONE or any ONE GROUP of people who can be made to appear “Christian” are then attempted to be made to appear as “all Christians” or representational of Christianity, and upon/about which people in search of a way out of the Christian concept of salvation will then try to demean the faith.
If you can convince enough other people that you’re just fine doing what you’re doing, promoting what you’re promoting, encouraging others to do what you may want them to do or that they already are doing — when those actions, choices are defined as threatening to your immortal soul by Christ and Judeo-Christianity in general (although the New Testament delivers salvation that the Old Testament does not, but this is another issue…just saying here that the New Testament refines what the Old Testament affirms and it’s significant to understanding Christianity that one know and understand the message of Christ in the New Testament, while limiting one’s understanding to the Old Testament can affect understanding) — you can by demeaning Christianity also attempt to elevate the behaviors and choices involved.
I always find those efforts indicative of a moral dilemma. A person has innate understanding that there’s a moral compromise there within certain choices and behaviors, and yet opts to override the intuitive, and goes about rather than changing oneself, attempting to change the perceptions of others about how they perceive the choices, behaviors and based upon what.
I’m glad people here clarify as to the KKK…not being a Christian group, any more than the German Socialist Party was one. There are many misperceptions, unfortunately, allowed to stand and even instructed about in public education. That, again, serves to assist the “acceptance” of the unacceptable, so it’s important to examine the source in comments like these, in efforts such as these to discredit Christ, Christianity, the Church.
Interestingly buried information, for example as to contemporary happenings, is that the Catholic Church’s Charities organization has been aiding and assisting millions after the Hurricane Katrina damage and has remained nearly completely out of the press. Which then allows people to wrongfully declare the Church as being unconcerned, etc. Perhaps others can see the pattern there…denouncing Christ is the behavior by people who really are trying to hide from Him.
And criticising Him is, too. I find it a call for help. Nothing wrong with it, but it merits attention. Christ came to save but He also saves by refining…and casting out sin.
Pretty well any of these anecdotes you site have nothing to do with Christ or Christianity.
Aside from that, as one who has studied Islam for over 20 years, you are correct in insinuating that Islam will not turn peaceful anytime soon..
IN FACT, it NEVER will as Islam’s core teachings are inherently brutal………Muhammed was and is the example of every pious muslim and Muhammed was a looter, rapist and murderer himself who advocated horrific things…..
The great difference lets say between Christians and Muslims is that those Christians that do horrible things in Christ name (and their have been some to be sure) do so against the teachings of Christ……….Those Muslims that do horrible things in the name of Islam have perfect sanction within the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah!!
Thanks
forget religion. Look at the records only. Don’t forget Central and South America, Bosnia, Yugoslavia. Dredge up all the muck and scum you can find. Then assign it to left, right, center (proprotionally if you’re that anally retentive).
Then get those people prosecuted, and then sentenced, and be done with it. I have had enough of all monkeys (left, right, center) choosing to focus on crimes of their “opposition”. It’s pitiful how all of you use whatever arguments are convenient to ding your opponents.
Clinton lied, and then parsed words to try and get away with it.
The WH & WHIG lied about the weapons in Iraq (show me those weapons or proof thereof if you disagree)
Nixon lied.
etc. etc.
Stop being like kindergarden kids and face up to it : politicians do this kind of thing, and anyone who does it should be caught and punished regardless of political convictions.
The day the Pope issues a fatwah on non-Christians, encourages the beheading of Muslims, cheers on the elimination of all Muslims and threatens that the “infidels” shall bathe in their own blood, I’ll see the moral equivalence. Christianity is a religion. Radical Islam is a priapic death cult.
Christ said love your neighbor as yourself, do good to those who spitefully use you.
The Prophet said..convert or die.
The MESSAGE in each religion comes from the top man. A good tree brings forth good fruit, and evil tree brings forth poisoned fruit.
We see the nations of the world where poverty, hate, murder, and chaos thrive. Those places are NOT primarily Christian. Ever notice that?
One final chauvinistic word : as a woman, I know which religion will not stone me to death for being raped, for impinging on the “honor” of my vainglorious male relatives.
Patricia makes the sound point that needs to be emphasized this it is strands of radical Islam and the jihads that are the dangers to the West. Most of these Middle-East societies without main stream Islam, or religion of some kind, would probably pose even greater criminal threats.
The WH & WHIG lied about the weapons in Iraq (show me those weapons or proof thereof if you disagree)
I don’t need to — the lack of weapons doesn’t prove a lie, you need to prove they knew the weapons had already been spirited out of the country during the 14-month-long glacially slow “rush to war.”
McGehee,
You missed the point that fred was trying to make. He summed it up nicely:
Stop being like kindergarden kids and face up to it : politicians do this kind of thing, and anyone who does it should be caught and punished regardless of political convictions.
By continuing to focus on and defend the imaginary WMD, you lose sight of the real issues.
You could look at the terror campaigns in Northern Ireland–and outlying areas–as examples of Christian terror. While there were certainly economic and social issues involved, the battles and bombings were being done in the name of particular Christian identifications. Often the targets were selected solely on the basis of which thread of Christianity they followed.
A point of fact: Saudi Arabia does not automatically disqualify Jews from entering the country. I’ve known Jews, in Saudi Arabia, as far back as 1981 in my personal experience, and know of some still there. The Saudis don’t permit Israelis in, however.
Another thing here that is key is that Islam is an ideology that has within it’s structure of beliefs that some lives be taken as acts of ideology.
Christianity does not. There is no aspect to Christianity that requires that the faithful go out and claim lives among those who refute or refuse the beliefs.
While, as I wrote, Islam does so require. I think it’s speculated that some among wicca and satanism do, too.
I can’t see how anyone could even compare Christianity to much of anything else, in my experience, beyond the behavioral. But that seems to be the focus of people who perceive Christianity as yet another club or social organization in which human behaviors are shared with society in general.
Albertanator specifies that which I reserved, as to Islam and Muhammed. Thanks for being so straightforward.
John Burgess…and Israel won’t allow Christians citizenship in Israel. To temper a bit there as to exclusions by whom and where.
“Christian terror” is a complete misnomer, a contradictory, nonsensical statement.
It’s not “Christianity” that terrorizes, nor Christains who engage in “terror” upon others. There are people living in and amidst those who are Christians, engaging in “terror”, yes, but it’s not Christianity that is motivating it.
Anyone can sit in a pew, sing a song. It does not mean they are Christian.
It’s debatable whether Rudolph qualifies as christian in anything but the “ethnic” sense.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-05-rudolph-cover-partone_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA
With regard to terrorism, a fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity is that Islam institutes the concept of a holy war against infidels. These holy wars are not “jihad”, but rather war that’s physical in nature and general is scope, applying to infidels everywhere and for all time. On the other hand, even the Christian old testament restricts physical war to an explicit list of nations and times and for the purpose of bringing about the nation of Israel. The only general call to war for Christians is a spiritual war against the forces of evil, which can be as practical as fighting against our own base nature or as ethereal as using the Name that’s above all names to battle demonic forces. We see what Islam calls a martyr; someone who blows themselves up in order to kill others. Read Acts 7 to see what Christianity calls a martyr.
From “S”
“Another thing here that is key is that Islam is an ideology that has within it’s structure of beliefs that some lives be taken as acts of ideology.”
I hear the the Gangster Diciples (and the Crips and the Bloods…) believe the same thing!
Rudolph isn’t a Christian.
Jay:
But my point is simple: yes, all religions have committed atrocities in their past. It’s part and parcel of the package. But the important thing is that the great religions outgrow that stage.
People committ atrocities Jay; religions are abstract concepts which people create and interpret, somtimes in order to justify their actions, IMO. Bringing up the idea that so-called “great religions” get somehow outgrow their terrorist phase is just weird. What?
I hear this argument time and time again. There is so much violent and weird shit in both the Koran and the Bible that its unreal.
Going around saying that “Islam” is responsible for committing atrocities ignores the specific groups and individuals that are committing the acts. Terrorism occurred in Ireland, and was committed by Christians. Terrorism has been committed by practicing atheists. Terrorism has been committed by Muslims.
For me it’s not really useful sit here and try to assess all the world’s religions on some kind of scorecard, especially since acts of war, terrorism, and horror are generally committed for varying POLITICAL reasons, even though religion is used as some kind of banner for both sides.
9/11. They were radical Muslims, with some serious homicidal issues, among others. I do not “blame” Islam, but instead the people who planned, supported, and carried out the acts of terror.
Dont make me go pick out stupid and violent quotes from the Bible, because there are plenty of them. It’s not the religion people, its the individuals, the actual humans who committ the acts, that are the problem.
This is like blaming some heavy metal band for kids’ bad behaviors. Like saying that violent lyrics somehow FORCE people to do evil things. I dont buy it; I think its a copout. I dont care how weird or violent the passages in the Koran or the Bible are. I blame the people who use religions and other tools as ways to achieve political goals, etc.
Hitler was a terrorist. So was Stalin. Do we blame Fascism, do we blame the idea of Socialism? Hell no. We blame the people that fell for that bullshit and did things they knew was wrong.
The whole LRA thing in Uganda is another great example. Joseph Kony is a terrorist, and horrible things are happening in that country. Children are being brainwashed and used as soldiers, and this is all done in the name of some religion. Kony and the LRA wants to overthrow the government, so he comes up with all his religious BS to get people to follow him; or to scare them into following him. The government of Uganda isnt exactly angelic, so many of the people are caught inbetween. They have this shitty government, and this violent terrorist group fighting that government. Blaming whatever “religion” Kony claims to follow is stupid in this case, as it’s just an irrelevant oversimplification.
Ian is correct. ERRudolph is not a christian. He is racist. He has made it clear that he bombs abortion clinics, “because they only abort white babies”.
I’ve heard this prolife rationale all my life.
No, I don’t think ALL prolifer’s feel this way, but some of them do.
“No, I don’t think ALL prolifer’s feel this way, but some of them do.”
Clearly proving that not all prolifers are Christian…or sane.
Tob
Tob
Thank you for your understanding.
By continuing to focus on and defend the imaginary WMD,
Imaginary? They existed. Fact. And it was Saddam’s responsiblity as part and parcel of the ceasefire in the first Gulf war to provide proof of their destruction.
Geez, is religious dedication to ignoring historical fact a requirement of the Leftist Cult?
S wrote:
There is no aspect to Christianity that requires that the faithful go out and claim lives among those who refute or refuse the beliefs.
Compare with:
“If your nearest relative or closest friend, even a brother, son, daughter, or beloved wife whispers to you to come and worship these foreign gods, do not consent nor listen, and have no pity; Do not spare that person from the penalty; don’t conceal this horrible suggestion. Execute him! Your own hand shall be the first upon him to put him to death, then the hands of all the people.”
-Dueteronomy 13:6,7
Top Muslim leaders call for bloodshed so often that their calls to violence don’t even make news. Compare this to the outcry, especially from many Christians, when the idiotic Pat Robertson called for the assassination of Chavez and the Divine destruction of a municipality in Pa.
Mohammed said, “Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.” Vol. 9:57(Hadiths)
Jesus said,”He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.” –Matthew 26:52(Gospels)
Quite a difference in philosophy, indeed.
And then there’s this, from the Revelation, in which Jesus codemns Jezebel and her followers for practicing immorality and eating meat that was sacrificed to other idols:
“I gave her time to change her mind and attitude, but she refused. Pay attention now to what I am saying: I willlay her upon a sickbed of intense affliction, along with all her immoral followers, unless they turn again to me, repenting of their sin with her; and I will strike her children dead.”
-The Revelation 2:20
Not exactly accepting of other beliefs…sorry, but there is some weird shit in the Bible, and it’s not exactly very tolerant of other viewpoints. But I dont blame the relgions here; I think they’re all subject to interpretation, and that individuals are responsible for their actions.
Ryan…
I think your first quote refers to how to treat someone *leaving* Judaism, not how to treat all non-Jews. Which doesn’t carry forward to Christianity.
As far as Revelations, it’s not Gospel, altho it is in the new Testament. Revs is a much more mystical, convoluted book than any other. I doubt seriously that any quotes are authentic.
😉
Ryan,
What is “The Revelation”? It does not seem to be the Book of Revelations. I cannot find your citation anywhere in the Bible.
As to violence in the Old Testament, you are correct that the Old Testament describes some acts of violence and a few less than holy acts by some of the prophets. Jay Tea notes as much when he mentions that Judaism has some violence in its early history (Book of Numbers).
Christianity also has violence in its past. However, I don’t see groups committing violent acts today (beheadings, bombings, or otherwise) in the name of Yahweh or the name of Christ. The modern interpertation is that such acts are forbidden by Christianity/Judiasm.
Committing violence in the same of Allah, with hardly a stirring of protest from most Muslims, is a daily occurence.
Nice try in blurring the issues.
Glad to see I could get this discussion rolling in force. For those of you who don’t know, I’m the one who posted the list Jay referred to in the original post.
I noticed a few of you “get it” (Ryan and Fred specifically). This is NOT about religion folks. Most of the terrorists, regardless of their religious affiliation, have SOCIAL/POLITICAL goals.
For those of you who still think the problem is Islam, I would ask: What is the solution? Try to convert them all to Christianity (Spanish Inquisition style)? What about the hundreds of millions who won’t convert? Wall them up somewhere? Maybe concentration camps?
Folks, you need to stop and think where your line of thinking is leading. I find it shameful that in a country, where freedom of religion was a founding principle, that religious intolerance can be so acceptable. At least the founding fathers were smart enough to realize that religion and politics don’t mix.
BTW, for those of you who don’t think the KKK is Christian, I recommend you visit their website, where they refer to themselves as a “white Christian organization”. Which brings me to my next point: Are they truly Christian? I cannot speak to what is in their hearts, although I tend to doubt it. Regardless, they claim to be. Is bin Laden truly Muslim? I would give the same answer for him.
Leelu:
I think your first quote refers to how to treat someone *leaving* Judaism, not how to treat all non-Jews. Which doesn’t carry forward to Christianity.
Look, I’m not trying to split hairs here. People are trying to act like there arent any “aspects” of Christianity that are violent and/or intolerant. Sorry, but there are. I understand that the quote is from the OT, but since it’s basically stapled to the New Testament, I would consider it at least an aspect of Christian thought. Remember, my argument here is that blaming the relgion is a waste of time. I’m bringing up weird quotes from the Bible to prove a point; the fact that the Bible asserts violence in certain places doesnt condemn the religions of either Judaism or Christianity…alot is a matter of interpretation and individual responsibility.
As far as Revelations, it’s not Gospel, altho it is in the new Testament. Revs is a much more mystical, convoluted book than any other. I doubt seriously that any quotes are authentic.
What do you mean by authentic? How can anything be considered authentic? Supposedly, the Revelation was revealed to John by by Jesus, as permitted by God.
Proud Kaffir:
What is “The Revelation”? It does not seem to be the Book of Revelations. I cannot find your citation anywhere in the Bible.
Weak. I’m holding The Living Bible paraphrased edition, published by Tyndale. In it, the final book is entitled, “The Revelation.” You have to remember that different editions and translations have slightly different word uses. Some versions do indeed call it the “Book of Revelations” I believe. But you knew that, you’re just playing stupid games.
Committing violence in the same of Allah, with hardly a stirring of protest from most Muslims, is a daily occurence.
You’re missing the point, pal. People committ violent acts in the name of all kinds of beliefs and ideologies and religions. To me, that doesnt mean shit, as the people themselves are responsible for what they do. The point is that those people who support that are doing it by choice, and I dont care what religion they follow. Why keep trying to focus on the abstraction? I would rather stick to specifics.
I’m bringing up weird quotes from the Bible to prove a point; the fact that the Bible asserts violence in certain places doesnt condemn the religions of either Judaism or Christianity…alot is a matter of interpretation and individual responsibility.
However, no one today uses quotes from the Bible or the Torah to justify widespread violence. This is the problem. If Muslims simply ignored the violent passages- although I believe you have to do a lot of rationale gymnastics to downplay the violence in the koran- we wouldn’t need to call attention to the obvious links between Islam and violent terrorism.
The issue, by the way, is not just the terrorist groups. Equally horrifying is the repression of people, especially women and Christians, by Muslim regimes.
kaffir:
If Muslims simply ignored the violent passages- although I believe you have to do a lot of rationale gymnastics to downplay the violence in the koran- we wouldn’t need to call attention to the obvious links between Islam and violent terrorism.
I dont give a damn about downplaying the violence in the Koran, Hitler’s journals, the Old Testament, or Harry Potter. That stuff exists. People choose to use that as a rationalization for their actions, which I think is bullshit.
Radical Islamists, I argue, use those passages to attempt to justify what they are doing. These are things that were written in what, the 7th century? Do you ever read anything from back then? Well, there’s no shortage of violence and weird shit in literature from that period, obviously. People interpret religions in many ways, and some use them to further political means. But its all a bunch of ideas and concepts, and blaming 1400 year old concepts for whats going on in specific places today isnt very useful to me. I’d rather talk about the specific people who are doing these things, as opposed to making sweeping claims about the inherent qualities of a religion.
The issue, by the way, is not just the terrorist groups. Equally horrifying is the repression of people, especially women and Christians, by Muslim regimes.
The repression of any group of people, by whatever regime, is horrifying in my book. The repression of Muslims by Christians=horrifying. The repression of Jews by fascists=horrifying. The repression of Native Americans by colonial powers=horrifying. No one human group has a corner on the market when it comes to evil, transgressions, and violence.
edmcgon
Sorry, sir, but I believe you don’t get it. Islamism is an all encompassing, religious ideology that declares all “man-made” governments null/void/kaffir. Islamism controls all spheres of human existence = government, society, culture, the individual. Islamic ideology holds there are but two realms… dar ul Harb (us infidels) and dar ul Islam (the superior moslems) and that there is no coexistence between the two.
Judaism has always existed within larger non-jewish cultures in a Hey, you do your thing, we’ll do ours and Christianity has a tradition of “render unto Caesar”.
Such tradition, teachings does not exist in Islam. Islam is “Convert, Submit (dhimmitude) or Die”
What do we do about it? Make it unequivocally clear we will not suffer totalitarian theocracies that preach the destruction of Western Civilization and that Islam must change. They must make those changes in their religious teachings that Islam as a faith is only legitimate when voluntarily embraced and it seeks to live in civility with other religions. Persuade with discourse, not by violence.
Ignoring the nature of Islamism hasn’t done France any favors.
Okay Darleen, I think I can make a point to you here. I still think that you are confusing the governments and organizations with inherent aspects of Islam in general. I know that the Koran has plenty of violent aspects, thats easy to see. Well, so does the OT.
The problem isnt ISLAM, its the fact that we have autocracies ruling many Islamic countries, THATS THE PROBLEM. Do you think that it would really help to somehow edit the Koran? Do you think that all of a sudden radical/violent leaders will start being nice? Corruption governments that use Islam as some justification are the problem here, and we have plenty of those in the middle east. Nobody in their right mind would blame Christianity for the violence that occurred between the IRA and the Brits; that would be foolish. The root of that problem was a political conflict.
I think that alot of people look at the fact that the Middle east is full of Muslims, and they just cant get that out of their heads. Well, to me it would be best if we realized that the real problem might not be what was written in some book 1400 years ago, but instead the fact that brutal dicators have ruled in the region for decades, creating all sorts of nasty problems, including the rise of these radical terrorist groups. Repression breeds terrorism, and the Middle East has had it’s fair share of repressive regimes.
“Repression breeds terrorism, and the Middle East has had it’s fair share of repressive regimes.”
Well said. Our response should proceed from that observation. But therein lies the rub: a significant portion of western society and and even larger share of elite opinion makers now profess that we have no right to meddle in the afairs of other nations, no matter how despotic or threatneing they may be. Result: paralysis.
Tob
These are things that were written in what, the 7th century? Do you ever read anything from back then?
Unlike Christians and Jews, Muslims believe the the Koran is the literal word of God regardless of when it was written. To attempt to explain the violence rampant in Islam today while ignoring Islamic text and orthodoxy is very naive. This would be like trying to understand the violent nature of Marxism and Nazism while ignoring the writings/proclamations of Karl Marx and Adolph Hitler.
Again, there is general agreement that you can find violence in all religious texts if you search long enough. There is also agreement that all religions had atrocities committed in their name within their history.
The problem with Islam is not isolated to the history or violent passages. The issue is that Muslims are violent today and cite their scriptures (the unedited word of God) as justification. Few Muslims openly denounce this interpertation today.
The issue, therefore, is both the teachings of the religion and the practice.
Toby:
But therein lies the rub: a significant portion of western society and and even larger share of elite opinion makers now profess that we have no right to meddle in the afairs of other nations, no matter how despotic or threatneing they may be. Result: paralysis.
Bingo.
For those of you who still think the problem is Islam, I would ask: What is the solution? Try to convert them all to Christianity (Spanish Inquisition style)? What about the hundreds of millions who won’t convert? Wall them up somewhere? Maybe concentration camps?
No, but shining a light on the true nature of Islam and showing some solidarity with the daily victims of the deathcult- which ironically enough are mostly Muslims- might help the situation.
Proud Kaffir:
The problem with Islam is not isolated to the history or violent passages. The issue is that Muslims are violent today and cite their scriptures (the unedited word of God) as justification. Few Muslims openly denounce this interpertation today.
But books and ideas dont make people do anything. People convince others to do things, and those people have agendas and political motivations. So you’re saying that the mere existence of these texts just magically makes people start killing one another? Like people have no control over what they choose to do? Are you serious? I have a copy of the Iliad sitting here, and I havent been compelled to go on some long murderous voyage as of yet.
The issue, therefore, is both the teachings of the religion and the practice.
The issue is how people teach it, and why. The issue is what agenda or political end are they trying to serve by teaching that religion in the way that they do. The issue is the leadership that tells people they have to kill others, and why thats happening. You’re saying we should change Islam, and I’m saying that we should blame the leaders who use Islam to justify their violent means.
No, but shining a light on the true nature of Islam and showing some solidarity with the daily victims of the deathcult- which ironically enough are mostly Muslims- might help the situation.
You just proved my point. If many of the victims are Muslims, then how can Islam be the problem? It’s the organizations, the leaders, and the governments that are corrupt and murderous that are the problem. Christ, they kill their own people. Same with Al Qaeda…Muslims are affected by their atrocities all the time, and yet people want to keep blaming the religion itself??? How many millions of professed Muslims just go about their lives everyday, trying to eat and sleep and be human? And yet, so many people want to blame the entire religion (which isnt just practiced in one form, by the way–the Isalm of Morrocco is not the same as the Islam of Indonesia) for the violent acts of radical groups that claim to be Muslim?
Millions and millions of Christians just try to live their lives everyday too. Should we blame Christianity when some psychopaths from the KKK, who claim to be Christians, commit some atrocious act? Of course not.
I say we shine a light on the economic, social, and political situations of the nations which terrorists come from. Thats what I think. Walking around blaming some broad abstract ideology gets us nowhere fast.
ryan,
It says nothing about a religion when some person or group commits an atrocity in the name of that religion. It’s how the majority of followers of that religion react to the atrocity that gives true witness of that religion. Followers of Islam dance in the street and celebrate atrocities done in the name of Islam. There’s no equivalent in Christianity. The OT’s violence was for a specific purpose, to bring about the nation of Israel, not the general call to spread the religion by the sword as is the case for Islam. Darleen has it right. Don’t underestimate the goal of Islam or you may find yourself with the choice of covert or die.