Here is more must watch video from Liz Cheney who presents the best defense of the Bush administration national security record than just about anyone. What is really funny here is Rachel Wener’s Huffington Post comment in the link to the video: “The Cheney family argument that torture did save lives has been undermined by recently released memos.”
It is funny because in the video Joe Scarborough exposes the dishonesty of the Obama administration for releasing memos from those who say “enhanced interrogation techniques” don’t work, but they keep classified and refuse to release other memos from the CIA and others proving that they did, in fact, work and saved lived.
JMC
“You don’t follow a quote I post you read that. You follow the links I post. simple really. “
Except you didnt post one. DUMBASS.
“Yip, the U.S. led the effort btw. Slamming America again.
“
Nope. Slamming the UN. there is a difference that even “Patriots” should be able to recognize.
“Well just implied I favor the fairness doctrine one paragraph up so you’ll forgive me for thinking you lie about everything.”
No I didnt. I said that most liberals. Not only cant you read you cant comrehend Mr Patriot.
“It was covered under that right to privacy. As in it is none of your business what goes on in their bedroom. It’s a freedom thing, something you are against. “
No it is a morality issue. Society sets moral issues for itself. Things such as who should marry, what are crimes, ie prostitution. What is acceptable and what isnt. Such as bestiality.
The founding fathers were big on morals unlike some so called “Patriots” today. But then again, as I said you selectively pick things from the founding fathers.
“All men a created equal” hmm, doesn’t’ say all men in the 13 colonies. Seems like they are saying we believe this idea and so we are setting up a country that lives this way. Never mind, people like you don’t agree with the founding fathers that all men are created equal with certain inalienable rights. People like you believe those rights only exist between Canada and Mexico. “
No I believe they should apply to all men but I understand that American law only applies to Americans and certain others as I stated numerous times. Unless of course you are advocating the US go out and try to enforce those laws throughout the world. Good luck with that.
“I was created by an explosion called the big bang (oops there goes science a far right no no.)”
Here we have you SELECTIVELY picking and choosing again. In the paragraph above you talk about the founding fathers beliefs you hold so near and dear yet you miss 4 little words in their beliefs. ENDOWED BY THEIR CREATOR. Here is a scientific fact. Inantimate objects (BIG BANG) CANT ENDOW ANYTHING on men. The founding fathers could have easily siad ENDOWED BY A ROCK and your version of their words would have meant exactly the same thing.
“Not what it says. And counter to our principals. “
I am dealing with FACTS. Are you saying that American law should apply to everyone? And as I have shown the founding fathers principals arent exactly yours.
“Uh no. That was Bush’s crime. Hopefully Obama fixes it soon. I have no problem with him working out the logistics.”
No you cant have it both ways. If Bush was robbing a bank and Obama continues to rob the bank then it is the same crime. You cant say Obama didnt know about the issue. You cant say he wasnt aware of the facts. Everyone said that Bush did a great job in the transistion . YOu cant say that Obama was ignorant of the circumstances with GITMO. All you have is Obama signing a statment saying he will close GITMO and when asked what will happen to the prisoners you have Gibbs with a deer in the headlights look. 4 months is long past the time of “I just got here” and is well within the time of “well they are there and let’s keep them there until I can get my foot out of my mouth”. If Bush was guilty of violating the 6th amendment than Obama is equally as guilty. And Obama doesnt like the admendment dealing with contracts either as he is proposing to violate that one with the UAW deal. There is no logistic to be worked out. He shold have already given them a trial if you follow your statements. It is laid out in the amendment plain and simple. But yet again you are picking and choosing.
“It was covered under that right to privacy. As in it is none of your business what goes on in their bedroom. It’s a freedom thing, something you are against”
That is funny. Seems like I said I dont care what happens in your bedroom. I also seem to have read that homosexuality has been around for thousands of years yet I cant reacall any gay marriages until about umm the last 20 or so. Once again the founding fathers didnt seem to have gay marriage in mind. But that is selective picking and choosing that you do.
“He’d be more impressed with me than you”
Massive ego check there and umm yeah totally bypassed anything the man said which is total opposition to Obama violating contract law. Typical of a liberal. Show them facts and they dodge around the corner and dont address the issues (in the case the issues laid out by the article).
You are a self righteous pompous ass who tries to wrap your ideas up in some grand theme and in doing so think you are insulating them from scrutiny. Congratulations on an ego the size of the sun.
“Mostly you bored me.”
You provide me great amusement. Keep it up I can continue to expose you for the fool that you are as long as you want “Mr Patriot”.
BTW JMC
“Slamming America again.”
Maybe you should talk to Obama bout his apology tour there.
So JMC (AKA MR PATRIOT)
If Obama goes through with this how do you feel about him and the bill of rights.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124223286506515765.html
Obama Considers Detaining Terror Suspects Indefinitely
WASHINGTON — The Obama administration is weighing plans to detain some terror suspects on U.S. soil — indefinitely and without trial — as part of a plan to retool military commission trials that were conducted for prisoners held in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba
—–
Burns your ass when he shows you up for a fool with your head up his add doesnt it.
If this happens I will love to see the liberals twist and turn and tyr to spen this.
Wow!jmc is cranked. He cannot phathom that we don’t agree with him about what is torture and what isn’t. Grow up buddy.
Oh yeah! By jmc’s logic, Japan did not commit and act of war by bombing Pearl Harbor. Do you see how silly you sound? ww
My favorite Ventura quotes?
“Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat!”
and
“Pardon me, but could you pass me the steroids?”
LOL! Awesome! That would probably be a testosterone hybrid called “logic” for one commenter in this thread. I like Jesse, though. I still think he’s a smart guy.
yeah I did post a quote moron. I posted one regarding the Bradbury memo which you then googled and couldn’t find. It was a quote from the article on the huffingtonpost. Again for the chronically slow. You read a quote. You follow a link.
Nope slamming America. The definition of torture you are panning because it comes from the U.N. actually comes from the U.S. Way to go, you did it again.
No it is a freedom issue something a idiot like you hates. people have the right to marry who they want as long as they are consenting adults. You think the government has the right to interfere in peoples’ lives. You do this because probably because freedom scares you.
They were also big on brains, unlike you.
You’ve stated a lot of stupid things. Doesn’t make them so.
Nope. advocating they apply to all who are here in the safe haven that is the U.S.. Meaning if a biritsh citizen is thrown in jail he too has the right to say “I demand to know the reason for my incarceration”
The text says endowed by their creator. Since we were all created by the big bang then either that did it or we are not endowed. Jefferson wrote a version of the bible where he stripped away all miracles, so the man who wrote those words didn’t believe we were magically created. He just thought Jesus was a good man.
If you believe a rock created you then sure. It says endowed by their creator it doesn’t name the creator. So if you think it is the universe, Shiva, God or any other magic spirits then according to the words that is what endowed you. You think the big bang can’t endow anyone. I think magic spirits that don’t exsit can’t. We will just have to go with the idea that whatever got us gives us those rights.
You think you are dealing with facts. Unfortunately for anyone who reads what you write, you don’t know what one is. And you have shown nothing about the founding fathers other than you stupid believe that creator means god When clearly they were conveying the point that whatever a person thinks got them here gives them certain rights.
Uh no. If Bush robs a bank and Obama holds on to the money until it is all accounted for before returning it, then it is Bush’s crime. As long as he returns it.
Sure you care what happens in the bedroom , when Texas arrested two men for having sex in the privacy of their own home and the supreme court ruled that was illegal (because of a right of privacy) most conservatives started yelling about damn activist judges. And no the Founding fathers didn’t have gay marriage specifically in mind they spoke in generalities so that many things would be covered. For instance when they said cruel and unusual punishment, they didn’t have specifically an electric anal prober in mind. Because it hadn’t been invented! Knowing that they couldn’t possibly cover every scenario they created as big umbrella. if it is cruel and unusual, it is illegal to do a prisoner. Similarly they spoke of the rights of people to make their own decisions without government interference that is what gay marriage is covered under. It’s a freedom thing.
Also: In the Ming dynasty, females would bind themselves in contracts to younger females in elaborate ceremonies. Males also entered similar arrangements In Japan, Shudo, the Japanese tradition of age-structured homosexuality was prevalent among the Samuri until the 19th century. In ancient rome Nero married a slave boy, and also a male friend; Martial also mentions same sex marriages taking place. So it has been around for a while. Not that it matters if it is new or not. Marriage is a private decscion between adults and does not concern busy bodies such as yourself.
Just like you ignored the Bradbury reprot. Typical conservative. I
I get my ego arguing with buffoons like you. Because I’m clearly so much smarter than you. 🙂 How can I not help feeling good about myself and destroying ll of your silly little arguments.
Sure I don’ mind making a fool of you. Mr. Nationalist.
You know, retired military, I used to think you were just kinda stupid, but now you’ve made it obvious that you’re also a terrible person, and a nationalist to boot. As for trying to bring abortion into this conversation, it’s obviously off-topic, but shows that you care more about denying women their reproductive rights than advocating for a more humane policy towards interrogating prisoners.
If you believe the things you have incoherently argued in this thread, then you’re a discredit to your country and its ideals. You’re no patriot, but a mindless nationalist.
Heralder,
You bring up some intersting points and I appreciate the fact that your posts are thoughtful and logical. Will reply in full when I have more time later this evening.
Only in the mind of a rationalist, jmc, which is what you are. Especially if you still have that fake e-mail address you accidentally posted on this blog: jmc@cheatingman.com As a rationalist, you can’t help but have a big, self-satisfied, ego.
Rationalist is a compliment to those who respect the human capacity for reason, LaMedusa, which is the single greatest thing in the world.
hyper, I have no disrespect for reason. I have little respect for people who only rationalize, and without considering the consequences of living only by hypotheses.
How can one think, LaMedusa–indeed, how can one do anything intentional–without reasoning? When we act impulsively, we suspend our capacity for better judgement.
“Rationalists are admirable beings, but rationalism is a hideous monster when it claims for itself omnipotence. Attribution of omnipotence to reason is as bad a piece of idolatry as is worship of a stick and stone believing it to be God”
-Ghandi
Nice strawman, Gandhi. Rationalists don’t think that reason is omnipotent, but only that there is no good reason to put much stock in any other method of arriving at conclusions or making decisions. We make mistakes, but we persevere, and it is science–not faith–that has given us the modern civilization in which we live.
Deductive truths notwithstanding, I consider all of my beliefs to be falsifiable. Gandhi, in that particular instance, was not speaking to any version of rationalism that I am familiar with.
Now we have hyper tyring to jump in on the MMC bandwagon. Tell me again Hyper why you are commenting on a thread discussing things like torture when you believe that in some circumstances it is okay for a doctor to kill a newborn?
” As for trying to bring abortion into this conversation, it’s obviously off-topic, but shows that you care more about denying women their reproductive rights than advocating for a more humane policy towards interrogating prisoners”
The instances which I brought up fit in the conversation as much as adriane browne’s comnents and the fact that you are even commenting on this thread considering your statements in the past thread on abortion where I parphrased you stance on kiling of newobrns.
Nice to see you are trying to juse JMC arguments for your own. What is the matter cant think of anything original?
Jmc
“yeah I did post a quote moron.”
You posted a quote. I posted that you didnt cite a source and tried to goole your quote. Then you posted the source. And if yo uloo at my responses below I addressed the medical situation as described in the memo Or the piece of the memo that I saw.
BTW for those reading his (minus JMC and hyper) I do apologize for the typing errors as I seem to be getting a ton of lag on this site. Anyone else experiencing that?
“
Nope slamming America. The definition of torture you are panning because it comes from the U.N. actually comes from the U.S. Way to go, you did it again.”
I dont care where it came from . I dotld you that waterboarding as it I kread it was done at GITMO does not fit my definition of torture. If you want to talk about slamming America, go talk to Obama about his apology tour.
“No it is a freedom issue something a idiot like you hates. people have the right to marry who they want as long as they are consenting adults. You think the government has the right to interfere in peoples’ lives. You do this because probably because freedom scares you. “
Well I say morality and you say freedom. The bottom line is the vast majority of Americans have rejected your view. AMong them are hillary and Obama who have both said that marriage should be between a man and a woman. Are you contending that they are haters as well? Again nice of you to put both feet in your mouth. I know you are sused to it. Freedom doesnt scare me. I dont like govt intrusion unlike Obama and his sheeple. As I said, homosexuality has been aroudn thousands of years. The subject of gay marriage has been discussed maybe 20-30. Sounds like you are on the wrong end of the stick. But next time you call someone a hater start with Hillary and Obama.
Let me repeat
The founding fathers were big on morals unlike some so called “Patriots” today. But then again, as I said you selectively pick things from the founding fathers.
They were also big on brains, unlike you.
“You’ve stated a lot of stupid things. Doesn’t make them so.”
Look in the mirror lately . Start with people are haters becuse they are aginst gay marriage and work your way back. Take a few years to list them all st them all. I will be here.
“Nope. advocating they apply to all who are here in the safe haven that is the U.S.. Meaning if a biritsh citizen is thrown in jail he too has the right to say “I demand to know the reason for my incarceration””
I guess you missed the Drudge report today where Obama is going to try to bring the GITMO folks here and hold them indefinitely.
“The text says endowed by their creator. Since we were all created by the big bang then either that did it or we are not endowed. Jefferson wrote a version of the bible where he stripped away all miracles, so the man who wrote those words didn’t believe we were magically created. He just thought Jesus was a good man. “
Again. An inantimiate object cant CREATE anything. I am sure that Jefforson would agree that they were talking about God as the word creator is capilitalized. You are living in a fantasy world. At least your other liberals admit that the founding fathers were not referring to the big bang but to GOD.
“So if you think it is the universe, Shiva, God or any other magic spirits then according to the words that is what endowed you. You think the big bang can’t endow anyone. I think magic spirits that don’t exsit can’t. We will just have to go with the idea that whatever got us gives us those rights. “
Tell you what go aroudn and tell folks that your religion asya that GOd is a rock and that a rock created you. Carry the rock around and show folks your “god”. See how fast you are taken away to the loony bin.
” When clearly they were conveying the point that whatever a person thinks got them here gives them certain rights. “
Talk about not dealing with facts. LIsten to yourself. As I said try the rock idea and see what happens.
“Uh no. If Bush robs a bank and Obama holds on to the money until it is all accounted for before returning it, then it is Bush’s crime. As long as he returns it.”
Obama is doing exactly what Bush did. If he didnt retun the money as son as possible but tells the cops that he is just holding the money to make sure it is all accounted for he would be going to jail as well.
“Sure you care what happens in the bedroom , when Texas arrested two men for having sex in the privacy of their own home and the supreme court ruled that was illegal (because of a right of privacy) most conservatives started yelling about damn activist judges.”
Note in the case you are talking about which was described in VERY general terms above I stated IF they were breaking the LAW then they should be arrested. If you think the law is wrong then change it or work to change it. If I think the law is right then I will work to keep it. That is our rights as Americans. You cant pick and choose what laws you obey as that would be anarchy.
” And no the Founding fathers didn’t have gay marriage specifically in mind they spoke in generalities so that many things would be covered.”
Specifcally or in general as it wasnt even coming up in the conversaton.
” For instance when they said cruel and unusual punishment, they didn’t have specifically an electric anal prober in mind. “
You mean like Hyper’s nose in Obamas ass?
“Because it hadn’t been invented! Knowing that they couldn’t possibly cover every scenario they created as big umbrella.”
Again homosexuality had been around 100s of years it isnt like they were not aware of it.
” if it is cruel and unusual, it is illegal to do a prisoner.”
A prisoner that is entitled to the same rights as described in the Constitution. BTW both the Declaration and Constitution mention the words “OF THE UNITED STATES”. There are laws and rules to follow outside the US. Bush got legal opinions and followed them.
” Similarly they spoke of the rights of people to make their own decisions without government interference that is what gay marriage is covered under. It’s a freedom thing. “
As I said go talk to Obama and Hillary . You mostlykey voted for them so you may have some pull like the UAW. They say the same thing about marriage as I do. It should remain between a man and a woman.
“Also: In the Ming dynasty, females would bind themselves in contracts to younger females in elaborate ceremonies. Males also entered similar arrangements In Japan, Shudo, the Japanese tradition of age-structured homosexuality was prevalent among the Samuri until the 19th century. In ancient rome Nero married a slave boy, and also a male friend; Martial also mentions same sex marriages taking place. So it has been around for a while. Not that it matters if it is new or not. Marriage is a private decscion between adults and does not concern busy bodies such as yourself. “
In general, gay marriage has not been practised nor allowed by vast majorities of societies throughout history. I admit I am not as up on the history of gay marraige as you seem to be maybe it is a subject close to home for you. Not that I am asking nor care.
“Just like you ignored the Bradbury reprot. Typical conservative.”
Actually I answered the general statement of the medical objections you cited.
“I get my ego arguing with buffoons like you. “
What is that you got your ego arguing with baboons. Isnt that how aids started?
“Because I’m clearly so much smarter than you. 🙂 How can I not help feeling good about myself and destroying ll of your silly little arguments. “
Oh boy I am so impressed.
BTW when I want your b*tchboy hyper to remove his nose from Obama’s hindquarters to tell me his opinion I will let you know.
You provide me great amusement. Keep it up I can continue to expose you for the fool that you are as long as you want “Mr. Patriot”.
hyper, that’s a cop-out because you know what I meant. Anyone can rationalize, including a murderer. When you only use reason, there are all kinds of formulas you can use, by way of rationalization that makes a choice seem right.
That’s where you have to step outside the formula for a moment and consider all pieces to the puzzle. Reason is only truly safe in the mind of a man with a conscience, and there are way too many without it. Give life to the ideology, and you have the potential to make the world a better place, no ego required.
They are also human beings that don’t fall into one category and have the best intentions in mind when making decisions.
Joe Biden is the perfect example of a rationalist without a conscience. He warns everyone of a “generated crisis” that will “test the mettle” of Obama. His rationalization is that a crisis is required in order to test the President’s decision-making ability. The citizens end up suffering as a result of such a crisis, but in Biden’s sick, twisted mind, it’s a means to an end. He feels that the benefits far outweigh the suffering, even though he is not the one that suffers as a result of such “reasoning”.
correction *don’t always fall into one category…
Probably wouldn’t have fit Saddam Hussein’s definition of torture either. Nice to see you have so much in common.
“Probably wouldn’t have fit Saddam Hussein’s definition of torture either. Nice to see you have so much in common.’
Cant comment on facts. You just have to try to settle for personal insults. Just like a liberal. Oh wait the word liberal wasnt meant as a personal insult. It was a fact though.
No, asshole, he was pointing out that your barbarically high threshold for what constitutes torture would probably have gotten an approving nod from someone who was so rightly demonized by America and her allies for torturing his own people.
There is no reason to prefer the victory of America over the victory of its enemies in the war against Islamic extremists if America adopts the position that it will do whatever it takes to defend itself. (Don’t say that’s not your argument: if waterboarding is defended because that’s what it takes, then there is no reason not to try any other method of torture.) When you start acting like barbarians in order to defeat the barbarians, then you’re no longer the good guys.
.
I just stated a liklihood. Most of the civilized world Would disagree with your definition of torture. Saddam, however, would have most likely been in your corner. Be proud of that. If it helps it’s not just the two of you. Pol Pot was fond of waterboarding, Pinochet used it too. You have a lot of people on your side of this argument.
Moreso than people who believe the big bang is the creator spoken of in the Constitution.
Let see
You call me a hater because I oppose gay marriage and I bring up that Obama and Hillary are for marriage between a man and a woman and you no longer debate the subject. Check.
Detention of prisoners and right to trial – Obama is considering holding them indefinitely in the states and you no longer debate the subject. Check
I mention both the declaration and the constitution use the words “of the United States” and you no longer debate the subject. Check
I mention that your original quote didn’t have a link in it and I responded to that fact prior to you posting a link and you no longer debate the subject. Check
You mention 2 guys arrested in Texas and I repeat my position “if they were breaking the law they should be arrested” and you cant pick and choose which liaws you break as anarchy would result and you no longer debate the subject. Check
I tell you to go around and tell people that a rock you have in your hand is your god and per the constitution it has bestowed inalienable rights to you and you no longer debate the subject. Check
Typical liberal.
“Most of the civilized world Would disagree with your definition of torture.” – I repeat myself. I could give a flying flip at a rolling donut what others think of my opinion. Do you go poll the civilized world on how you should feel about things or do you just quote Obama “It is above my pay grade”
Hyper,
You make one more comment like the above
of an american victory, insinuating that
defeat is preferable for my country according
to your opinion or beliefs and you’ll find your
self gone.
How big of a shovel would you like?