Without looking at the URL or the headline at the top, try to figure out which city this is. Each red dot represents a murder in the past year. Isn’t that a quagmire? Isn’t it time to consider pulling out?
Without looking at the URL or the headline at the top, try to figure out which city this is. Each red dot represents a murder in the past year. Isn’t that a quagmire? Isn’t it time to consider pulling out?
Barney:
If a gun could be tracked back to the buyer, than the illegal trade in guns will drop.
I, too, am a gun owner. How would we enforce laws preventing me from selling my gun to my neighbor, him to his father, him to his son, his son to a criminal?
I’ll make it easier: Steal a gun. Wow, now it can’t be traced at all. They are already criminals. Making it harder for citizens to own guns will only increase crime. It’s been proven.
According to Fox news, the homicide rate for Baghdad was:
2002 14 per 100,000
2004 76 per 100,000
According to this study (just out yesterday):
http://www.brook.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf
The homicide rate in Irag for 2006 (thru Aug) is about:
2006 354 per 100,000
Hey I got an idea. Why not post a sign on your door that says I don’t own any guns. Then those that do post the sign saying I own guns.This way the crooks will know where to go. Do you think old muri(geo), b’google, “pucker puss”(lee lee) and the like would post the sign? I will give $20 for p’p'(lee lee) trip. He could earn the money him(?)self by just putting up a sign saying–“open for business”(hint hint)
BarneyFife.02,
If a gun could be tracked back to the buyer, than the illegal trade in guns will drop.
That’s just about the biggest damn IF you’re ever going to see, ladies and gentlemen.
It’s typical of liberal thinking. It sounds good. It makes me feel good. Therefore, it must be good.
It’s completely IMPOSSIBLE, of course, but don’t let that deter you.
If we can’t stop (not to mention slow down) the flow of illegal drugs into this country, what could possibly make you think we could stop the flow of illegal guns into this country? Just to make this so simple even you should be able to understand it, Barney, assume for the sake of argument that we do manage to spend billions and billions of dollars and successfully get the ballistic signature of every gun in this country as of right now. Great! Now what? What are you going to do about all the new illegal guns that come to this country every year?
As much as you like to complain about the actions the Republicans have taken to attempt to combat terrorists and terrorism, you really do want a police state, don’t you? You just want one with a Dim in charge. Because that’s the only way you’ll achieve the kind of gun control you are advocating.
More homicide rates per 100,000 persons:
Philly = 22
Dallas = 20.2
LA = 13.4
US Forces in Iraq = 656
Muirgeo, this is a very sad picture. However, the original post deals with murders in Philly. So it is not clear what this poor child’s picture has to do with the murder rate. My comment still stands about funding. You made a simple statement that if funds/resources were not diverted to Iraq and instead were spent in the cities that these sorts of murder statistics would not occur. I countered your simple statement with a simple reply. Pleasingly, your follow up to me suggests that this is a more complex problem than your initial comment indicated. But the Philadelphia DHS/ School System discussions can be left for another time. If my later comment about the murder rate being related to drugs generated your reply to me then I ask where you feel the level of this mother’s sense of personal responsibility to herself and her child end? That is an important question to me. First, society is basically good because I don’t think there is anyone here (liberal or conservative) who would not feel sympathy for this child. But does society’s sympathy absolve this mother’s responsibility??? Money does not change that. I also feel the Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq are wasting their time fighting each other while freedom is knocking at their door. You would suggest no amount of money will change that. At least the Kurds seem to get it. And I bet each and every one of them owns a gun to protect their sense of freedom.
This issue has almost nothing to do with gun control.
It’s an issue of poverty, lack of education and human resources. Give me just 1 billion a year of the hundreds of billions spent/ wasted in Iraq and I could have the murder rate in Philly down and the literacy rate up.
These are the issues where many under estimate the true cost of the Iraq war….what a waste of our soldiers and of our people here living in need. And much of it going to profiteers who feel they need more millions for themselves with no thought for the troops or the drug babies back home…there time has come….they are going to pay back to society what they owe.
It our fault. If we were only nice to the criminals, they won’t hurt us. (Isn’t that the Iraq logic?). So give the mugger your wallet, spread your legs for the rapist, hand the keys to the car thief (and gasoline credit card) and make sure to have the silverware in a case ready for the burglar (and leave the door unlocked).
I feel safer already!
Mungo, haven’t we spent trillions of $$ on the “War on Poverty?” This is great–Mungo’s theory is at odds with BarneytheDinosauerv6.0. Both theories are illustrative of the loony left not having its act together, or much else.
I blame the police in Philly for “provoking” the “insurgents” by their presence among the proud people there.
I say, shut the place down and pull the voter registration. Then, we’d get Santorum back.
Muirgeo, I have no criticism about your last post other than to thank you for not mentioning gun control as a productive means of curbing violence.
Giving money to somebody without them earning it, is wasted money. They won’t appreciate it and when they do get it, then they expect it. Thus leading to lower education (since they are given money, they really don’t need an education) and more crime (especially if you quit giving them money).
We’ve spent about $4.5 trillion on social welfare programs in the last forty years, resulting in the situation we have now.
The left’s solution? More social welfare spending.
“He’s a one-trick pony, but he turns that trick with pride.”
But the Philadelphia DHS/ School System discussions can be left for another time. If my later comment about the murder rate being related to drugs generated your reply to me then I ask where you feel the level of this mother’s sense of personal responsibility to herself and her child end? That is an important question to me. First, society is basically good because I don’t think there is anyone here (liberal or conservative) who would not feel sympathy for this child. But does society’s sympathy absolve this mother’s responsibility??? Money does not change that.
Posted by: DaveD
Dave,
Thanks for a reasoned reply. I’m a Pediatrician who started my career as a conservative who somewhat despised my welfare mom’s having babies they couldn’t or wouldn’t take care of. The disregard for individual responsibility and the everyone’s a victim mentality of the left really bothered me.
But time and experience has shown me that that mom who acts irresponsibly was indeed once the child I see before me.
It truly is a cycle of ignorance and poverty and it is one we can break with proper attention and resources.
Get that mom the health care she needs (help her plan her family, help her and her husband find a job, help them break their drug habit, help them graduate from highschool, help them not become pregnant teens, support head start and child care needs, overhaul the eduation system, enforce the laws and make their streets safer…..lots of money needed here but nothing of the sort we are spending in Iraq and on other corporate welfare. The return rate will be great not just for those families but for their cities, for me and you and for our country.
I’m not promoting self-fullfilling welfare of the past. We all recognize the failure that was but the flip side is a lot can be done with programs that help these people break the cycle of poverty. We can do more but we are squandering our resources on lost causes and some I see as infuriatingly aimed at pigs feeding from the trough just as dependent on government welfare and costing us far more in the long run then the welfare mom.
You’ll never end poverty per se but you can choose to minimize it like we have and better still as they has in the social democracies of Europe. Or you can ignore it in preference for an unregulated “frre market” system that the conservatives wish to push but which results in economies like Mexico or Columbia…highly concentrated wealth, a very small middle class, a corrupt ruling elite, single party governance and upwards of 50% of people living in poverty.
“Does Philadelphia have a green zone?
Posted by: ted at November 14, 2006 09:33 AM”
Yeah.
Fairmont Park.
muirego,
You’ll never end poverty per se but you can choose to minimize it like we have and better still as they has in the social democracies of Europe. Or you can ignore it in preference for an unregulated “frre market” system that the conservatives wish to push but which results in economies like Mexico or Columbia…highly concentrated wealth, a very small middle class, a corrupt ruling elite, single party governance and upwards of 50% of people living in poverty.
————————————————
You really don’t know what you are talking about here. The reason Mexico is in the bad economic shape because it is following the socialist policies of the western European countries. The people in Europe are far poorer compared to people in the US. The Canadian/British health care system is a disaster for the poor, who are languishing int the public health care system with long waiting period. Only the very rich in England can afford the private care.
Just look at the unemployment rate in Europe for example. Airbus is in trouble now because of its socialistic practice.
You’ll never end poverty per se but you can choose to minimize it like we have and better still as they has in the social democracies of Europe
Posted by: muirgeo
Europe is also touting how great their unemployment is. It remained at a five year low of 7.8% USA unemployment is currently 4.4%, and many (on the left) are still saying that’s too high. Can you imagine unemployment being 7.8% in the US right now? Correct me if I’m wrong, muirgeo, but if you don’t have a job, you are going to have to get government aid, if you are getting government aid, (a.k.a. paid for doing nothing) why would you get a job?
There were 337 murders in Philly between Jan. 1, 2006 and Oct. 1, 2006. The Brookings Institute reports that there are over 5000 murders MONTHLY in Baghdad. You republicans crack me up with your math.
Comparing our inability to regulate illegal drugs and guns is not a logical comparison. We manufacture guns. No one is growing a basement full of glocks in Auburn, Washington right now. We are not importing kilos of bullets from Columbia. I can’t buy a bunch of cold medicine and whip up an Uzi in my canning kitchen.
Every single gun and bullet used in every single crime, in all likelyhood, entered the stream of commerce legally at some point and was later lost, stolen, or sold. Every one. Every bullet. Every gun.
The only comparison to drugs is something like Oxycontin, where we know exactly where every pill is made.
Can anyone disagree with the following statement?
We should make it as difficult as possible for felons, children, and the mentally and physically incompetent (i.e. blind people) to purchase or possess firearms.
Don’t tell me it won’t work. Sure it will. It won’t stop every gun crime, but it would certainly stop some.
-Barney
Sorry, but that doesn’t work either. All it takes to alter a ballistic signature is a wire brush or a file.
And every time you fire a gun, you alter the signature by a fraction. The signature of a gun when it rolls off the line is NOT going to match the signature it has after a few boxes of ammo have done down the barrel.
Plus, many of the favorite sources of gang guns are from smuggled in through the ports, not coming right off of Colt’s assembly line. The Russian mob will not be in compliance with any fingerprint laws.
Finally, many of the guns used are recycled from thug to thug, crime to crime.
You still hear about gang bangers using full auto Tec-9s, even though that gun hasn’t been built since 1982. The non-convertible version was banned in 1994. Heck, the Swedish company that made them went under in 2001.
But you’ll still see police reports citing Tec-9s in Philly this year.
SS,
Do you know what the black market is?
There were 337 murders in Philly between Jan. 1, 2006 and Oct. 1, 2006. The Brookings Institute reports that there are over 5000 murders MONTHLY in Baghdad.
And unfortunately, not one single solitary moronic brownshirt fuck puking wingnut talking points on a blog was one of them
Because they’re Mother. Fucking. Cowards.
Yeah, just like Philly.
In Baghdad, the Brookings Institution’s Iraq Index estimates that 5,320 people are killed a month, meaning there were 53,200 murders between Jan. 1 and Oct. 31, 2006. (Brookings notes this number may be “too low since many murder victims are never taken to the morgue, but buried quickly and privately and therefore never recorded in official tallies.”)*
*Think Progress
You really don’t know what you are talking about here. The reason Mexico is in the bad economic shape because it is following the socialist policies of the western European countries.
Posted by: LoveAmerica Immigrant
You are absolutly wrong here. There is nothing socialist about Mexico. In fact almost all of their policies mirror what conservatives want for our country. Miminmal taxation, minimal regulation, single party rule, abortion illegal, huge gaps of wealth between the rich and poor, no middle class and lots of poor cheap laborers and no significant human services…it’s a Neocons dream an their citizens night mare.
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/14/iraq-philadelphia-quagmire/
Usually Wizbang is one of the smarter right wing blogs. Not this time.
Can you imagine unemployment being 7.8% in the US right now? Correct me if I’m wrong, muirgeo, but if you don’t have a job, you are going to have to get government aid, if you are getting government aid, (a.k.a. paid for doing nothing) why would you get a job?
Posted by: Logan
Logan,
If we calculated unemployment the same way the numbers would not be so different.
* Isn’t it time to consider pulling out?
i wasn’t aware that the US military was occupying Philadelphia. it’s hard to pull out of something you’re not… in.
but, it’s nice to see you’re getting a good laugh over 377 dead Americans!
The evidence that the European social democracies are worse off then us is lacking. When unemployed they still have health insurance. When employed they generally have 4 more weeks of vacation then ttheir USA counterparts.
See here.
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/14/iraq-philadelphia-quagmire/
Rep. Steve King (R-IA) has also tried to claim that living in Washington, DC, is as dangerous as living in Iraq. Comparing the murder rate in any U.S. city with the situation in Baghdad only underscores how out-of-touch some conservatives are from the real situation on the ground in Iraq.
. . . Oh look. . . a doggy! Frogs are green! Sponges are alive. . . I hate Nancy Pelosi!!!
Very prescient analysis, Einstein.
What the hell is your point again?
It remained at a five year low of 7.8% USA unemployment is currently 4.4%, and many (on the left) are still saying that’s too high.
Apples and oranges. The US uses a different standard to measure unemployment.
Hey, here’s an idea; how about one of you brave boys actually enlist in the armed forces and go fight in the war you support?
Thanks for listening, cowards!
“Prior surges in the homicide rate had easy explanations. Gangs. Crack. The economy.
“Not this time.
“I don’t think anybody could just give an instant answer,” said State Rep. Dwight Evans, a Philadelphia Democrat who has been leading antiviolence efforts.
Experts find clues in police statistics. Seventy percent of Philadelphia’s homicides involved young men in arguments. Some argued over drugs, but many feuded for far less.”
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/special_packages/violence/13524288.htm
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS – murigeo is wrong again!!
Yes, I quoted a DEMocrat – not a Republican you can disagree with.
I’ve been to Iraq, spent more than a year there as a contractor, mostly in the Green Zone, and as recently as this June.
Comparing any American city to Baghdad is a sign of stupidity. The only relatively safe place is in the Kurdish regions, there are still kidnappings and car bombs even in Erbil and Sulymaniyah on occasion.
Baghdad and the rest of Iraq is a hell on earth. Every day you hear explosions from car bombs, mortars and rockets. The Iraqis I worked with were in constant fear – many had had close calls with car bombs and mortars, and militia and police. In addition, they say it is very common to find several bodies dumped on your street in the morning.
The death rate by violence is so far ahead of anywhere in the USA. The extremity and randomness of the violence – you have to fear militias, the police and criminals – is driving Iraqis with any means out of the country.
My goodness, you people are stupid. Comparing Baghdad to Philadelphia…honestly.
Are any of your fools wibbling on about the second ammendment going to address the fact that…
THE INITIAL COMPARISON IS COMPLETELY WRONG AND THE MURDER RATE FOR IRAQ IS MASSIVELY HIGHER THAN FOR PHILADELPHIA?
After that, we can then look at the ownership rates of firearms in Iraq. But for now…
PHILADELPHIA: 337 PER YEAR
IRAQ: 5320 PER MONTH
http://www.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index20060223.pdf
I know you want to lecture “the left” on being stupid: But you can start by proving you know how to debate properly in the first place.
this post plumbs new depths of cupidity AND stupidity.
Comparing Philly’s 355 homicides this year to Baghdad’s 1000s of homicides, kidnappings, sectarian militias, roadside bombs, suicide bombings, and car bombings is beyond the pale and the mark of a very unserious person. What’s your point? “B’duh, Philly’s violent too”?
GBD Central Texas asks whether Philly’s gun control laws are some of the toughest in the nation. That is emphatically not so: Philly doesn’t have tough gun control laws. It’s very easy to get a gun here, and if you can’t buy one yourself, there’s always an enterprising young straw dealer happy to fill your needs.
I live in Philly, in one of the more dangerous neighborhoods, but it’s nothing like Iraq here.
Dumbass.
uh… a map of this size with the murder rate in Bagdad would be SOLID BLOOD RED you would need to project it in 3D, 150 layers deep to read the individual dots, like this map. The murder rate in Bagdad is around 5300 a month (that they know about). This map shows 337 1st-3rdQ, 2006, deaths in Philly Cheese. During the Jan – Oct. 31, 2006, at least 47,700 people have died in Bagdad.
Sectarian death squads roam the street killing and kindapping indiscrimitly.
your comparison to inner city drug and gun violence in Philly is pretty weak
“Do you liberal’s really think that the terroritsts are the only ones capapble of building a bomb.”
I love reasoning like this. I would almost guarandamtee this person believes that “liberal’s” are crazy to be against profiling.
Because a pregnant woman would never attempt to hijack an airliner, so let’s let them all through and get straight to them A-rabs, right scrapiron? oh wait…that actually happened once…
Profiling is dumb! Except when it’s smart!
My god, just when I thought you couldn’t get dumber, a post comparing Philly to Baghdad. Jesus, as far as credible numbers minimally 1% of the prewar Iraqi population has been killed. Imagine if all the people in Arkansas had been killed since the beginning of the war. We may be upset. Of course, using your numbers the vast majority of those killed in Iraq are brown and only count 160:1.
Who’s comparing? I’m just saying that we should cut and run because THERE’S NO WAY WE’RE GONNA WIN IT.
There is NO HOPE for Philadelphia.
Hey, you guys are famous on ThinkProgress!! And you look like idiots!
FACT CHECK: Baghdad Murder Rate Is 160 Times Greater Than Philadelphia
In a post this morning, Wizbang blogger Alexander K. McClure compared the homicide rate in Philadelphia to the situation in Iraq:
Without looking at the URL or the headline at the top, try to figure out which city this is. Each red dot represents a murder in the past year. Isn’t that a quagmire? Isn’t it time to consider pulling out?
The city McClure pointed to is Philadelphia. It had 337 homicides between Jan. 1 and Oct. 31, 2006.
In Baghdad, the Brookings Institution’s Iraq Index estimates that 5,320 people are killed a month, meaning there were 53,200 murders between Jan. 1 and Oct. 31, 2006. (Brookings notes this number may be “too low since many murder victims are never taken to the morgue, but buried quickly and privately and therefore never recorded in official tallies.”)
Rep. Steve King (R-IA) has also tried to claim that living in Washington, DC, is as dangerous as living in Iraq. Comparing the murder rate in any U.S. city with the situation in Baghdad only underscores how out-of-touch some conservatives are from the real situation on the ground in Iraq.
Wow, this is the dumbest post I have seen in a VERY, VERY long time. But to be honest, there is some value in the comparison. Philly, by anyone’s standards, is a very dangerous place. It has one of the highest homicide rates of any US city. Yet, the murder rate in Baghdad is 160 TIMES the homocide rate than that of Philly. That is, for every homocide in Philly, there are 160 in Baghdad. And that estimate is a bare minimum; the actual homocide rate is probably a lot higher given that many homocides are not reported to authorities.
I would like to see a map of Philly showing the locations of all IED explosions, car bombs, massive grave burial sites, and kidnappings of 50+ people at a time over the last nine months. Or maybe Alexander might be willing just to list the number of IED explosions in Philly per month for 2006. I’m sure it’s not too different from Baghdad. Couldn’t be, right?
Whoa. I knew this was going to be moonbat bait, but no idea they would be so much fun.
I don’t recall reading about 100 plus people being kidnapped from a government building in Philly while the police stand idly by. And I also don’t recall hearing about everyday citizens of Philly having their names and addresses tattooed on their thighs so that their bodies can be identified if they get executed on the streets. I also don’t think the morgues of Philadelphia are overflowing with decaying bodies. Oh, and last I heard, Philadelphia has electricity 24/7. So, I guess, yeah, I’d have to say that Baghdad is at least a BIT worse off than Philadelphia.
There are some SERIOUSLY confused folks on this site. The Second Amendment is about leaving open the possibility that citizens will once again have to revolt against a tyrannical government. Do some of you “Conservatives” actually believe that Democrats and/or “Liberals” will be the ones to produce such a government?! You know…us America-hating terrorists who don’t think George Bush should have the power to disappear people who have not been found guilty of a crime? Who think the President should not be able to simply say, “Nahh…i don’t think i’ll follow that law…”? Y’all’s freaking idiot President has ALREADY implicitly claimed the ability to SEIZE YOUR FIREARMS and have you put in solitary confinement forever. Do you really not understand that? Jesus Christ.
SCSIwuzzy,
Yeah, and I thought our regular moonbat trolls were crazy! They got nuttin’ on this new batch.
“Without looking at the URL or the headline at the top, try to figure out which city this is. Each red dot represents a murder in the past year. Isn’t that a quagmire? Isn’t it time to consider pulling out?”
Philly — 337 homicides between Jan. 1 and Oct. 31, 2006…
Baghdad — 5000+ homicides per month…
Alexander K. McClure — Not the sharpest knife in the drawer…
Skeik,
What is it about the progressive mind that misses satirical intent? Exageration? Some, I think, probably beleive that Swift liked young flesh.
I also love the logic that you can win an arguement by being as purposely offensive as possible.
A shame really, when you see a valid point invalidated by spiteful rhetoric or the choice of a screen name that they think will offend (based on their preconcieved notions of who post here).
It’s like Borat, but without being on purpose.
Comparing the two cities has other faulty reasoning besides the others listed. The advances in medicine has dramatically reduced the numbers killed in US wars but if one were to compare lost limbs or some mental disorder of soldiers, the results would show the tragedy.