Yesterday, my little piece on the Foley mess generated a LOT of heated arguments. As I read through the comments, a few thoughts came to mind.
1) VagaBond wondered how, if Foley is never formally charged with a crime, could anyone else be charged in the mess. Yeah, they could. Look at the Valerie Plame case — the actual leaker, Richard Armitage, is utterly in the clear, but Scooter Libby is still facing perjury charges.
2) The effect on the November elections: I expect very little. There simply isn’t a national election this year — there are 435 state district elections and 33 or 34 (I don’t feel like looking up the precise number) state-wide elections. The Democrats will TRY to hang Foley around the necks of Republicans, but the simple fact is that unless they can connect the voter’s individual representative to Foley directly, he won’t be a factor.
2A) A lot of people tend to forget that we don’t have national elections here. Ever. Even when we elect presidents, we have 51 individual elections, and the winner is not the guy who gets the most votes, but gets the most votes in the right states. Hell, if one candidate took just the ten most populous states and didn’t win a single vote in any other state, they’d still squeak out a victory.
3) For better or worse, the bar has been raised considerably on what is and is not considered acceptable conduct for members of Congress. 20 years ago, having sex with 17-year-old pages was grounds for censure. Just six years ago, former Congressman Mel Reynolds was serving jail time for having sex with a 16-year-old campaign worker (and attempting to lure her younger sister into the sordid mess), but his sentence for that and serious financial improprieties was commuted by then-outgoing President Clinton. Now, trying to have cybersex with a page is, politically, a capital offense.
4) Neither party has a monopoly on virtue and morality, and neither has a lock on sleazebags. Those who say that the Foley scandal — or the Reynolds scandal, or the Condit scandal, or the Studds scandal, or the Frank scandal — is an exemplar of a partisan hack trying to score points at any expense.
5) The fact is that nearly every member of Congress belongs to the same party. That party is not the Democratic or the Republican party, but the Incumbent party. And the partisanship that engenders can be far fiercer than either of the two formal parties can produce.
6) This is purely speculative on my part, but it seems that political affiliation seems to play a part in how scandals — especially sex scandals — are handled. Republican offenses tend to raise the bar in acceptable conduct, while Democrat peccadilloes seem to, if I may steal a phrase, “define deviancy down.” Dan Crane (R) had an affair with a female intern, and was made a pariah. At the same time, Gerry Studds (D) had an affair with a male page and was censured, turned his back on the House when the censure was read, then welcomed back into the fold — to the point where the Democratic leadership appointed him chairman of a committee.
Prior to Bill Clinton, a president engaging in sexual relations with a 22-year-old subordinate in the Oval Office — and then lying about it under oath — would have been grounds for resignation or removal from office. But Clintons survived that scandal and left office still holding remarkable popularity.
A clergyman fathering an illegitimate child on a member of his staff, the using his organization to pay her to keep silent? That’s the stuff of bad drama — or a slice of the life story of the Reverend Jesse Jackson. Compared to that, Jimmy Swaggart’s dallying with a prostitute seems pretty minor, and Jim Bakker’s rather comparable. Those two self-styled men of God became pariahs; Jackson remains a figure of much renown and influence.
Clinton and Jackson were, ironically, instrumental in the attempted reformation of former Congressman Mel Reynolds (D-IL), who was convicted of having sex with a 16-year-old campaign worker and various and sundry financial misdoings. Clinton, as one of his last acts, commuted Reynolds’ sentence and Jackson hired him as an advisor for his Rainbow/PUSH Coalition, leading to the rather remarkable circumstance of “an ex-congressman who had sex with a subordinate won clemency from a president who had sex with a subordinate, then was hired by a clergyman who had sex with a subordinate.”
Given my druthers, I think I prefer conservative scandals. They tend to leave the offender a bit more thoroughly chastised, and seem better at setting precedent for acceptable conduct.
7) While there was potential for Democrats to make some hay out of the whole mess, they — to use a phrase most often applied to the Palestinians — “never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” They fell victim to their historical error and are overplaying their hand, as so well noted by Dafydd ab Hugh.
In the end, though, I think the main consequence of the Foley mess will be a general suspicion of members of Congress in general, but not much on people’s individual represenatives and senators specifically — and they are the only ones who decide if they will be returned to Washington or sent packing.
And as for Foley himself: he is in rehab for his “alcoholism” and, after, will no doubt seek counseling for his “sex addiction” and “abuse by a clergy member.” (A local talk show opened the lines for suggestions for Foley’s next excuse, noting that he seems to be going right down the list of standards. My favorite: Post-partum depression.) But even if he is never charged criminally, he will always be a pariah and the butt (sorry) of jokes and a cheap punchline — and that is the very least he deserves.
That’s what I thought Barney. You are so intellectually dishonest, you won’t even address the Jefferson issue.
I would answer that we are the party of values and when one of ours is caught being dirty, we get rid of them. Unlike the party of NO values, where they still sit in Congress where they can keep on accepting bribes or molesting pages
You are a good little Democrat sycophant.
VW
Steve of Norway — Read the Fox News survey just out regarding the impact of this issue on voters. You do trust Fox News, don’t you?
I’d give you a link but you’re too damned rude, and I’m perfectly happy if you remain stupid as well, so look it up yourself, nimrod.
…or don’t, I don’t care. You can go on doing what you’re doing and thinking it won’t effect votes – I’m ok with that, you putz! LOL!
Bush: “If we had any idea that terrorist were planning on flying planes into our buildings, we would have moved heaven and hell to stop them”.
Hastert: “If somebody had this info, when they had it, we could have dealt with it then.”
Republicans need a building to fall on them before they do anything!
VW, I promise not to vote for Jefferson this November, or in any other election. Happy now?
Actually, I don’t think it will *affect* votes and why the hate? Well, childish hate that is…that the best you’ve got?
I don’t understand????? I have not met a single conservative (Republican) who has tried to make an excuse for Foley. Foley is gone – and he should be. Over/done. This is consistent with the conservative stance. It is lawful for a man’s past behavior to be scrutinized when a woman tries to establish whether sexual harrasment is a pattern. Clinton lied when this line of questioning was put to him. He lied under oath. He should have been impeached. It was chosen not to try him in the Senate. Fine. These are two independent events that are unrelated to each other and as far as I am concerned the parties directly involved got what they deserved. Period. Get over it. Let’s focus on something important for crying out loud.
This thread is a peach. All these useless liberals gloating over something that is in the whole scheme of things insignificant.
It’s like telling a man dying of terminal cancer that he’s been cured of alcoholism, and the guy throws a party. The Dem. Party better get its act together because no Repub. faux scandal can cure it of what ails it.
Barney, you are so predictable. You can’t even say Jefferson should resign. I am laughing and I mean really laughing. You and your fellow moonbat nut jobs don’t want to clean up corruption, you just want the power back. If you were honest (and you are not) you’d admit it.
VW
Peloshi, the voice of the democrats.
1. Awarded a child rapist (based on the democrats defination today) with a chairmanship. Of course he was a democrat that went unpunished for child rape, made fun of the house leadership, and was reelected by idiots.
2. Marched (3 steps behind) with the leader of the National (North) American Man Boy love Association (NAMBLA)in SF. Left to her there will be no age limit on boys raped by homosexuals. Is there one currently in SF? Doubtful.
3. Receives a 5 star rating from the communist organization (ACLU).
Yep, she’s one great hero of the democrats.
“you just want the power back…”
Gee VW you are so perceptive. You’re on to us. We never thought that any republican would be smart enough to figure it out. Yes, the Democrats want to be the majority party in the House, Senate and eventually the Whitehouse. Curse you VW for exposing our plan!!!!!
It really is pathetic! After the 2002 election the GOP had the Dems. on the ropes. The Democratic Party was on the verge of becoming a footnote, or as Bush likes to say “a comma”, but nooooooooo. Bush and the GOP had to blow it by not only lying about Iraq, but by screwing the Iraqi pooch. Than you had Shiavo, Meyers, Katrina, deficit, immigration, Dubai, Rove, Abramoff and now Foley/Hastert.
Now, your best-case scenario is that both parties are even, and worst is that you will lose both houses, and Bush will be proven the fool.
How does that feel?
DaveD: “Foley is gone – and he should be. Over/done.” He resigned — the Republicans didn’t kick him out. Let’s get that lie behind us. Meanwhile Hastert, who was warned three years ago that Foley was out of control, is barely clinging onto his job. He should resign.
Mitchell: “This thread is a peach. All these useless liberals gloating over something that is in the whole scheme of things insignificant.” Check out the latest Fox poll. You guys just lost the House and the Senate.
VW: “Barney, you are so predictable.” VW– I knew you’d say that.
Scrappy: Get help. Your DDS (Democrat Derangement Syndrome) is beyond the medications you’re on now. Try something new – like Lithium.
I listened to a few minutes of Sean Hannity’s radio show today. He had a caller who wanted to know what the Democrats were going to do now that they’d “thrown their Gay constituency under the bus.”
Do you nutcakes really think that gay Democrats are going to vote for Republicans candidates because of this? Those same gay Democrats that have been told for the last several years that they are in bed with terrorists, and guilty of cut and run, because they dare call Georgie’s war a mistake?
What are you guys smoking?
And whatever it is, gives some to Scrappy. Maybe it’ll calm his shattered nerves.
Curse you VW for exposing our plan
Not to be snarky or anything, but is there a plan after that?
To be honest, I don’t think it’s that interesting about the current topics, but what is the plan (by either party) to correct this type of behavior going forward .. …or is there really anything they can do?
Just to be clear ^, I’m not really concerned with ongoing and/or persistent investigations or anything – but what do you do?
Hugh:
It looks like the Bull Chips are falling fast and furious here, eh?
Hey “pucker puss” (lee lee) you know who they ask in the socall surveys? People that can be led around like lemmings-ones that cannot even tell you who the VP is-ones that bitch if they have to walk to the mailbox to get their welfare check. People with any common sense can see right thru you poor old moonbat whimping about “morals”. Who gives a shit what some fag says over the internet. All the one on the other end has to do is click off. If someone is old enough to train to be a page, they are old enough to know right from wrong and how to report it and get rid of the fag. But of coarse there are two kinds of fags-Demo fags and Rep fags. Rep fags get canned and Demo fags get reelected and pardoned. Ok everyone can jump my ass now.
Well Barney, not you, not Hugh, none of you, are really anti-corruption. You won’t demand the resignation of your own corrupt officials.
If anyone votes Democrat just because of the Foley fuss, they are really too stupid to even be voting.
Not to be snarky or anything, but is there a plan after that?
Well, at the very least we can start with the same plan that Bush had after invading Iraq: “Achieve Success”. Surely those on the right don’t suddenly need anything more specific than that.
Achieve Success
regarding… …what, Brian?
Please don’t marginalize Iraq to the level of the Foley scandal and what is to be done, if anything, about it going forward.
It happens to be a legitimate and on topic question.
Of course, emailing them and advising them to force Hastert out is a smarter move, but that’s your decision — and as a Democrat I’m perfectly ok with you not doing that.
In terms of sheer politics, it’d be wiser for him to stay on and utterly slander the accuser.
It works, remarkably well and consistently, for the Dems.
Boo Hoo, family value republicans wonder why they don’t get a break when they are caught soliciting a minor and stealing money and selling your vote to the highest paying lobbyist? Hint, go back and read the contract with America!!
So, Dems OPPOSE family values?
I mean, with all of their massive ethical failings, your lack of condemnation of THEM makes sense only if they oppose it.
You don’t see ANYBODY defending Foley. Nobody is giving him respect.
Studds got that. Frank got that. Reynolds got that. Jefferson still gets that. Reid still gets it.
VW, I promise not to vote for Jefferson this November, or in any other election. Happy now?
And the GOP promises not to vote for Foley.
Sounds like problem has been resolved.
The same party that opposes seizing terrorist communications and opposed, vigorously, when memos about the Dems plan to politicize the intelligence was made public are now insisting that the Congress seize somebody’s IM’s with no real justifiable reason for it.
Got it.
-=Mike
Hey “pucker puss” (lee lee)
Sorry, I have no idea what this means, but I just have to jump in and say how entertaining it is to see you keeping up with your pet name for Lee in post after post. It’s fascinating to watch your obsession with him develop and grow. You would rather take a swipe at him than have anyone take anything you say seriously, which is very rare these days. And you’re not at all concerned with projecting any kind of maturity. I’m impressed you have the tenacity to keep it up, long after anyone remembers why it is exactly that you’re obsessed with him. Personally, I hope you can keep it going, as it’s quite amusing. Also, it’s good training for when you reach puberty and find something to really obsess about.
“So, Dems OPPOSE family values?” MikeSC
No, we are the party of sex and drugs and rock-n-roll, and we are kicking your missionary postion loving asses.
Excellent post Jay. Elections this Nov will be local, which many here seemed to miss this point.
While this nation should be more concerned with what is going on in N Korea, Iraq, Iran, the left is busy throwing stones in their own glass domiciles.
Nastee Nancy has proclaimed that when she becomes the queen bee, she will pass a couple of hundred billion in entitlements (and then) put in a “pay as you go” bill. Wanna try the PAYG first Nance?
Oh, but wasn’t Newt the first to do that?
She’s already admitted she will be raising taxes, and will no doubt start impeachment proceedings against GW. By God, that will embolden them terrorist, but when did that left give a s**t about our national security? Isn’t being in power more important?
Foley who?
“Your” last majority in a Presidential election was…when?
“You” last won Congress via election…when?
The conservative v liberal “feud” is a feud in the same sense that the hammer and the nail have a feud.
I prefer my “ass-kickings” to lead to success, personally.
But that’s just me.
-=Mike
Oh boy!! Now we got an intellectual nerd that posts by the name “azguy”(short for crazyguy?).Don’t you just love it when some “intellectual” tells you whats wrong with you? Uhh if you don’t like what I do I suggest you go elsewhere as this is not your blog. Until the owner says cool it you can stick it .(anywhere you like) Have a nice day!
regarding… …what, Brian?
You know… making America better than it was before. Better, stronger, faster. Prosperity on the march. All that nebulous non-plan rhetoric that seems to be sufficient when it comes from Bush.
Please don’t marginalize Iraq to the level of the Foley scandal and what is to be done, if anything, about it going forward.
It was your question I was responding to, and it wasn’t about Foley. So don’t make it go there, and it won’t.
It happens to be a legitimate and on topic question.
If you’re being genuine, and I’ll take you at your word, then you can read all about it here. But I won’t contribute here to a debate about which party’s “plan for the future” rhetoric is more empty and nebulous. It’s not this thread’s topic, and it could fill a blog of its own.
I hate to do this but…
BRIAN!
I’M TALKING ABOUT THE POST-“THE FOLEY FALLOUT” PLAN!
Hence, the “what is the plan (by either party) to correct this type of behavior going forward” comment.
I even said “Please” for shit’s sakes.
Sorry, miss. Didn’t mean to offend.
“pucker pucker” crazyguy
I’M TALKING ABOUT THE POST-“THE FOLEY FALLOUT” PLAN!
The thread had gotten off-topic of Foley, and was:
>>>You and your fellow moonbat nut jobs don’t want to clean up corruption, you just want the power back.
>>Curse you VW for exposing our plan
>Not to be snarky or anything, but is there a plan after that?
So the topic was the Dem’s generic plan once in power again, not a plan about Foley.
Hence, the “what is the plan (by either party) to correct this type of behavior going forward” comment.
You didn’t say “to correct this type of behavior” in your original question.
But since you asked… there is no meaningful plan, for either side, going forward. You can’t weed perverts out of Congress. All you can do is respond to them when the warning signs present themselves. So I guess the “plan” is: be vigilant, be honest, and when someone tells you that there’s inappropriate behavior among your ranks, think of the kids’ well-being over politics, and don’t sweep it under the rug.
I believe those points have been well-espoused by the Democratic leadership.
So the topic was the Dem’s generic plan once in power again
Which is perhaps why in that link that you sent me, the bottom half of it is upside down and in Spanish.
..it’s difficult to read that part of it that way, but then again, I don’t know Spanish 🙂
The top half is a decent plan, I’d have to agree, but are the dems as a whole willing to put our money where their mouths are is the real question…
…otherwise, the upside down/Spanish plan sounds just as good as any generic plan so far.
Boy, you can say this again…
You can’t weed perverts out of Congress
I suppose that it’s like trying to get piss out of a swimming pool.
Why does anyone pretend the Democrats care about anything Foley actually did and Hastert failed to dig up? Everyone knows Democrats have been faced with far worse scandals involving sexual misconduct and their response was…not a problem! If Foley was a Democrat and the GOP attempted to treat this the way Democrats have I can even imagine what folks like Brian and Lee would be saying-“Don’t you Rethuglicans believe in innocent until proven guilty? Jesus! D*m fascists.” and “What he did wasn’t even illegal! Creepy homophobic bigots-get out of Foley’s bedroom!” Until the GOP response to the Democrats never ending stream of fake scandals is to tell them to eff off,and then a quick recap of all the real Democrat scandals-you know, where people actually went to jail AND the Democratic party as a whole had no problem with their conduct-they won’t make Democrats stop this BS.Since I’m sure Lee & co. have no memory of these,I’ll name a few-Mel Reynolds,Barney Frank& and the gay whorehouse,the various Clinton scandals-don’t forget about the jailbird governor of Arkansas,Willian Jefferson (probable jail time,no resignation forced by Dems),the East St. Louis vote fraud case,and the entire history of the New Jersey Democratic party.I won’t even list all the corruption that didn’t get someone sent up-endless vote fraud everywhere in the country,Bill Clinton himself,for exanple.Yet I missed all the Democratic outrage and demands for cleaner government.More often Democrats are outraged anyone less perfect than Jesus dares to critcize them.I can see why I would be unhappy by Foleys conduct but I can’t see why Lee or Brian would even care.
Now we know why the Democrats didn’t have a plan
Didn’t need one, the surprise was in the can ….
Did it occur to you that the reason the Democrats didn’t have a plan before is because they were waiting for the October surprise? Isn’t it odd that less than a week after the ‘surprise’ that there is Cong Pelosi out there with her plan, banners flying high, and acting like she had it all figured out all along. Very convenient don’t you think? Even more so if you assume she knew nothing about the surprise. I have no doubt it was a setup, and the DNCC is behind it all.
Neat huh …
azguy: how about this nickname: “Assguy”?
Hee, hee.
I know, I’ll get a reply: “Oh, Mitchell, SOOOO mature.”
Look, if you had old Pucker Puss hovering over every post, posting such nonsense, when no one really cares what he says, you’d find a humorous way to toss him off, too.
These guys must think they are “saving” us from Herr BushhitlerDevil. In that way, they are no different than our wacky religious right fringe groups. Gotta laugh.
Which is perhaps why in that link that you sent me, the bottom half of it is upside down and in Spanish.
Not sure what you mean here. I’d guess you have problems with your browser. If you’re interested, you can read it here too.
Not sure what you mean here. I’d guess you have problems with your browser. If you’re interested, you can read it here too
Well, that link ( http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v001/democratic1.download.akamai.com/8082/pdfs/20060329_realsecurity.pdf ) is a 10 page PDF file, which the last 5 are upside down and in Spanish – just a humourous observation is all.
Ah, I see. I didn’t point you to the PDF file originally, just the web page that showed the same text, so I didn’t know what you were talking about. Presumably that PDF is meant to be printed as a double-sided pamphlet, with English on one side and Spanish on the other.
“Look, if you had old Pucker Puss hovering over every post, posting such nonsense, when no one really cares what he says, you’d find a humorous way to toss him off, too.”
Lucky me. I get to state my views, and in doing so I get nutcakes like you, Mitchell (and jhow and Zelda, etc.) to look like the immature *ssholes you truly are.
Maybe Rove will offer me a job…