Note: This post is now closed to new comments. The Metzger discussion will continue in our new Wizbang Forum, where there is a thread devoted to Metzger. Registration is required to post on our new vBulliten powered forums. We’re fairly certain that the new forum system will be more practical for this type of extended discussion…
In the coming weeks we’ll updated to look of the forums to more closely match the new Wizbang design.
some1:
I knew the D was going to be good but the offense? Man… Grossman and the boys are kicking butt.
Julie: the last post was about me poking fun at me… it wasn’t some innuendo directed toward you.
Doc: Excellent theory! Bi-polar.
Gee now everybody is jumping on the loony toon nut case possibility.
Here’s part of a post I made back on 30 September at 03:02 PM.
Many mental illnesses are symptom free or perhaps better described no-symptom documented as most persons especially supervisors and managers in the politically correct world go to great lengths to identify problems as being caused by something other than mental illness. Detaining somebody for mental illness observation or even doing a command referral for psychiatric evaluation is difficult. Psychiatric profiles are based on BOTH “mishap probability” (chance that medication or illness related duty impairment will occur) and the “hazard severity” (the danger to mission, security or safety should the impairment impact the person’s function at a critical time). Detaining for observation purposes would require demonstrating she was in a current state of mind to taker her own life or to harm others–it would in most instances require a legal process decision.
However epidemiologic data indicates that between 7 percent and 18 percent of the American population meets the diagnostic criteria for primary anxiety disorders at any point in time. Studies also indicate a relationship exists between lactate sensitivity as the most dramatic marker for anxiety disorder and also has some connection to undesirable symptoms of PMS.
We do know Major Mitzger is both a female and an endurance athlete (marathon runner) and lactic acid is the demon of exercise physiology and also of PMS, so I wonder if….
…, she might not have had adequate methods for venting her frustrations and anxieties in other ways other than by having sex.
… Consequently a significant anxiety if not panic disorder presented, when and if a unexpected pregnancy was discovered.
DM:
Nothing wrong at all with doing both (thinking and feeling). Both have their purpose…when applied properly.
What is common: feelers who fail to think
Less common: thinkers who suppress feelings because they consider emotion as being inferior
What is probably rare: individuals who can apply both critical thought and emotion (feelings) appropriately.
I’m not shooting across anyone’s bow here (Wiz/ DM)… just running my mouth…errr fingers. A pointless observation really.
I think mental illness would be her best bet for getting off the hook, or at least getting somewhat off the hook, but I don’t for a second believe she’s mentally ill. Yes, she can possibly be CLASSIFIED any number of ways; we ALL can be. The symptom descriptions for many “illnesses” are vague and broad enough to apply to anyone who wants to appear “that way”. We’re ALL “hypomanic” and have various personality disorders.
HOWEVER, I can say from experience that most MILITARY doctors don’t go along with that kind of bull**** as much as civilian doctors are sometimes willing to. My favorite quote from the military was from a military psychiatrist in Iraq evaluating someone who was freaked out and wanted to go home after an IED exploded near his tent: “PTSD my ass.” But we’ll see what happens with Jill. She’s awful cute and will probably turn on the tears.
I’ve got PTSD! and I’ll NEVER go to a Turkish bath house again…. EVER.
——-IKJ
Actually, that was very well thought out.. Last time I did my personality profile I came out as an ENTJ.. That’s high on the thinking… low on the feeling.. Keirsey Temperament Sorter. It’s actually pretty facinating.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fieldmarshal_%28Role_Variant%29
I think it’s still available (for free) somewhere out there on the web.
—-IKJ
Don’t know if you have seen this guy.. Ali G. From the Da Ali G Show. If you haven’t seen it… you gotta watch.. rated.. BUT Hilarious!!
Here’s a quote from the DVD..
“So, if this show teach you anything, it should teach you how to respek everyone: animals, children, bitches, spazmos, mingers, lezzers, fatty boombahs, and even gaylords. So, to all you lot watching this, but mainly to the normal people, respek. West side.”
Sacha Baron Cohen
As character Ali G, Da Ali G Show
IKJ,
Not pointless – astute.
I can see why it’s easy for some to think that they are thinking because they are questioning and making up theories, but that I must not be thinking because I’ve not joined their camp. IMO there’s enough evidence by my posts that I have thought about the situation, but come to a different conclusion. I can think about the situation and still feel for the people involved.
Wiz,
I’ve take the Myers-Briggs a few times….
I’m an ENTJ as well. (with a close balance between J & P… Judging vs. Perceiving).
I haven’t seen the Temperament Sorter so thanks.
“fieldmarshal to fieldmarshal”. There were several of the descriptions that validate my placement into that catagory. Another trait that I recall from the ENTJ analysis is that we tend to be “big picture thinkers” and can sometimes find it a chore to work the details. (That certainly applies to me too at times).
PREGNANCY IN THE AIR FORCE
Friday, September 29, 2006 – FreeMarketNews.com
The story of a U.S. Air Force officer, who apparently became pregnant while on duty in Kyrgyzstan, has now hit the public airwaves. According to a story in SiaNews, Jill Metzger, a Major in the force, is indeed pregnant, and sought an abortion to deal with the problem.
Previously, Metzger had apparently attempted to cover her absence from duty, with a story about being kidnapped. The report was broadcast on a Kyrgyz television station, which noted that “U.S. militaries are not allowed to be pregnant during the service.” It interviewed the physician who performed the procedure, and who verified the information, as did the cab driver who reportedly delivered Ms. Metzger to the clinic.
The article speculates over her motivation for seeking such a low-standard clinic, where almost nobody even spoke English, for the procedure, and concludes she was probably hoping to avoid discovery, either by her husband or her superiors in the service. Now, it notes, all is out in the open, with far worse results. – ST
Staff Reports – Free-Market News Network
Wiz:
I’ve seen Ali G but only a few episodes. “Now that’s funny there, I don’t care who you are”
DM: I feel for those involved as well…. even JM. She’s certainly wrecked her marriage, career, friendships etc. Now, that said; if she’s found guilty of something then justice should be served and I think it will.
some1whono:
That’s an old article on a blog which involved material posted HERE first by Kuba Kyrgyz. “SiaNews” which it quotes is another blog. The abortion rumor in Kyrgyzstan has not been substantiated (YET?) as far as we know.
Julie: Excellent info. Thanks for the post.
DM: I don’t think Some1 meant laughing at those who stood beside her in regards to family, friends and husband. I took that as the outside world, perhaps even people in this blog area and other blog areas continuously bashing those who feel she is guilty, and commenting the innocent until proven guilty even given all the outright strange statements she made and obvious lies. I don’t laugh at her family, it would be normal for them to support her and expected. However, that one picture, coming off the plane and her mother’s arm barely going up to give her flowers, nearly turning her hand/fist away spoke volumes to me. That to me, using body language, showed a mother who was VERY disappointed in her daughter -certainly NOT a welcome for a supposed hero….
As far as the bi-polar, I still hand onto the abortion theory and feel that is what happened, however, bipolar could very well be a huge part of her personality given all the strange statements and “story” which came out – even a reason for getting pregnant in the first place. I don’t know that happened, but that is my theory…..
great comments today!!!
Wizbanger, you may think more and I may feel more, but we do have Da Ali G Show in common 🙂
IKJ: Turkish bath house??
——DM….
Here’s one…
Ali G: But what harm has violence ever done?
Media analyst: Oh… death!
Ali G: Yeah, but apart from that.
Sacha Baron Cohen
Da Ali G Show”
Deb G:
Big, fat, hairy Turkish men who should have invested in deoderant…. hold on, I need my pills.
Seriously, just kidding. I wouldn’t go to a Turkish bath house for the reasons above. I was just joking.
Ok… for all on this post who may be big, fat, hairy Turkish men… or women. No offense intended. Might I recommend Right Guard?
—–IKJ
What??? You want I should post this again..Eh!??
“So, if this show teach you anything, it should teach you how to respek everyone: animals, children, bitches, spazmos, mingers, lezzers, fatty boombahs, and even gaylords. So, to all you lot watching this, but mainly to the normal people, respek. West side.”
Sacha Baron Cohen
As character Ali G, Da Ali G Show
I don’t think that much can be read into the photo of them off the plane. It’s a split second of people in motion. It looks like her mother’s arm was moving toward Metzger and the camera caught it en route. The camera captures an image of her arm there, but that doesn’t mean it stopped there. As for the the positioning of her hand, I don’t think it really tells a story. She’s reach across her body, which is awkward, and for all we know, at her age, she could have arthritis which would make the movement even more awkward. Her other arm is around Metzger – if she was really very disappointed of her daughter, it’s more likely that she’d be avoiding physical contact and she wouldn’t have brought a gift of yellow roses.
Okay, IMHO but professional opinion, if Jill had a severe enough diagnosis of bi-polar to influence her behavior in this manner (IE, go off and disappear for three days ‘just because’) her superiors would have noticed something amiss prior to that point. Unless of course, they were completely derelict in their duties.
The patient can’t just turn the symptoms on and off; indeed they often don’t think there is anything amiss in their behavior. Many bi-polar patients go off their meds because they miss the manic (“high”)episodes.
Jill doesn’t sound like a classic bi-polar to me, but hey, most of my patients are less than four feet tall.
Wiz:
my bad… respek! 🙂
Alright, time for bed here in the “Land of the not quite right”.
Wizbanger, if you haven’t already seen, Sasha’s coming out with a new movie “Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan.”
IKJ: ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww I was laughing silly reading that! I was in Germany and lots of the same stuff there. They don’t like to shower and told me that Americans have such dry skin because we shower daily. They don’t and the oils make the skin look younger longer – ewwwwwwwww I lived in Germany for 8 years and my mother’s family is from there (they don’t speak English!), but the smell at times – yuck….
Disclaimer: This is not meant to speak derogatory toward Germans, I have family there, however, it is part of their culture not to bath often….they rarely wear deodorant. Perhaps we could send some Right Guard and Secret for them! A grand gesture…..
DM: You’re probably right. A second of a pic, but just that one second of that visual made me think her mother was just not happy. To me, noone looked happy in that pic…..
I have got to watch that show!!
Well I gotta get some things done..
DM.. thanks, I’ll check it out.
Shrink is correct in that bipolar or manic depressive patients can’t just turn their symptoms on or off but they can be “functionally dysfunctional” for years before people take notice. Often manic depressive people tend to be of the over-achiever personality (make major in 10 years, be the winner of the women’s division marathon for the USAF, etc.) and people regard them as “respectable people.” The fact that they have other “strange, odd or off” characteristics about them seem to be overshadowed by the accomplishments.
Of course on the other hand, you have the bipolar folks who have rages when manic, can’t sleep for days, paint their ceilings and walls and so on…but a mental health issue that could have contributed to her 3 day getaway. A three day manic episode? No sleep, had to run…maybe.
Stress can certainly induce mania. The stress of going home to a marriage she didn’t want to be in? The stress of being pregnant? The stress of fearing she had an STD from her indiscretions? How about just stress of going back to everyday life, to a spouse, when she had never had to return to a spouse from deployment previously? All could trigger a manic event in someone who had previously only experienced hypomania.
Article from Valdosta newspaper that paraphrases the AF Times article.
http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/local/local_story_285011224.html
The report was broadcast on a Kyrgyz television station, which noted that “U.S. militaries are not allowed to be pregnant during the service.”
Kyrgyz television was misinformed. Pregnancy does not disqualify or become cause for mandatory separation or removal from serving a military obligation. However, pregnancy is a temporary medical condition that limits and restricts what military duties are done by a female military member during the pregnancy–it mission impairs duty status pertaining to performing and supporting combat operations and personal readiness to be there to perform all expected military duties.
Pregnancy does not require a Medical Evaluation Board and is handled as a code 81 temporary 4T profile that imposes mobility, TDY, and duty task performance restrictions and limitations to include not being eligible to deploy to a imminent danger pay duty location and if the female gets pregnant at such duty locations will cause early release from the deployment duty taskings and return to home duty station. The medical standard for eligibility to deploy is “Be free of medical conditions, including pregnancy, which require special appliances, or periodic treatments or follow up by medical specialists or sub specialists during the period of the deployment. (Ref AFI 48-123v4, para A5.2.3)”
Jill Metzger Hello!!!
Where is Jill Metzger??
“Wizbanger, if you haven’t already seen, Sasha’s coming out with a new movie “Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan.”
Posted by: DM at October 13, 2006 01:32 PM”
2DEB G
Ask me ’bout Kazakhstan. 🙂
1) Borat is the Turkish name. Bulat is the equivalent name in Kazakh.
2) Sasha Baron Cohen has never been to Kazakhstan.
3) He is a Jew. He doesn’t look Kazakh to my eyes.
4) Kazakhstan is a country of size equal to whole Western Europe in terms of land.
5) Jagshemash is a Polish word.
6) Kazakhs do not drink fermented horse’s urine, they drink fermented mare’s milk (occasionally).
7) Russian spaceships blast off from Baikonur, Kazakhstan.
8) Kazakhs and Kyrgyz are very similar nations.
Very similar languages and customs.
9 Rural Kazakhs also steal their brides
10) Adolph Hitler made an exceptions for 2 asiatic nations, Kazakh and Kyrgyz, joining them to the rank of Aryan folks. 🙂 But that was for purely political reasons, I guess.
Waffen-SS im Einsatz
Hitler’s Soviet Muslim Legions
http://stosstruppen39-45.tripod.com/id10.html
When the mass of Soviet Muslims collaborators followed the retreating German armies to avoid the reprisals that awaited them from the Russians, Himmler would probably not have objected to procuring them for the Waffen SS. He had decided that it was only the Slav and the Jews in the Russian stock who were sub-humans. There was a superior element in the Russian nation which come from Asia and which had produced Attila, Jenghiz Khan, Tamerlane, Lenin, and Stalin. The Soviet Muslims themselves were suited with these criteria. Many of them came from Caucasus (just like Stalin origin) or descendants and relatives of the Mongols (like Tartar and Turkestan peoples).
/*
http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/local/local_story_285011224.html
Metzger is appearing before a grand jury to validate she was abducted and to OK the Justice Department to investigate in Kyrgyzstan, the article stated. No details were released from the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia as to the grand jury proceedings because they are considered secret, the article stated.
*/
Interesting turn… So, she’ll be flying back to Bishkek soon.
Interesting turn… So, she’ll be flying back to Bishkek soon.
Unlikely to happen, not required.
Although article informs “Metzger is appearing before a grand jury to validate she was abducted and to OK the Justice Department to investigate in Kyrgyzstan.” The grand jury is basically putting her under oath to give sworn statement of her explanation of what happened. The Justice Department and OSI need no permissions from her unless they want access to any medical records concerning any medical treatments or procedures she had during her disappearance.
I do not know International Criminal Law (other than Geneva Conventions and other laws of armed conflict) and I certainly do not know Kyrgyzstan laws, but even supposing and agreeing full diplomatic immunity I do not think there is anything stopping local Kyrgyzstan law enforcement from proceeding with conducting an investigation just to satisfy thier courosity and to document the evidence to close the book on the abduction case.
If alleged abortion did happen I wonder how much access to medical records and other evidence is acceptable in Kyrgyzstan during a criminal investigation without the patient’s permission?
More on Diplomatic Immunity of US and Russian military personnel.
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2004/07/340e7fcb-12eb-4e60-9606-42cb39311a10.html
Kyrgyzstan: Russian Troops, Like U.S. Counterparts, Now Enjoy Diplomatic Immunity
By Bruce Pannier
The upper house of Kyrgyzstan’s parliament has voted to give Russian soldiers stationed in the country diplomatic immunity. Soldiers from the U.S.-led coalition stationed in Kyrgyzstan for operations in Afghanistan already enjoy such immunity. But some in Kyrgyzstan question why foreign troops should be exempt from Kyrgyz laws while they are on Kyrgyz soil.
“
If alleged abortion did happen I wonder how much access to medical records and other evidence is acceptable in Kyrgyzstan during a criminal investigation without the patient’s permission?
Posted by: johca at October 14, 2006 05:15 AM
“
Cops can freely access medical records and other evidence without the patient’s permission. They just need warranty issued by police.
I’m going to conjecture a little bit on what’ll happen next:
1)In all probability, it looks like that JM had criminal abortion. With no medical records. I guess that surgeon, who made a statement on NTS TV station, will be interrogated by Kyrgyz cops.
He will be announced culprit for all mishap.
2)Abduction scenario will be pursued. I wonder how that will be worked out.
3)JM will be announced mentally unstable.
But some in Kyrgyzstan question why foreign troops should be exempt from Kyrgyz laws while they are on Kyrgyz soil.
They are not exempt, they are expected to respect and obey all Kyrgyztan laws. It’s that if a military memember breaks a local law it is the who is going to do the prosecuting and convicting. Not always te best thing for any government when it comes to the victim seeing or not seeing justice was properly and adequately dispensed.
http://www.iwpr.net/?p=rca&s=f&o=177080&apc_state=henirca2002
Kyrgyzstan: Car Crash Heightens Unease over US Ties
A recent traffic accident in which an American soldier hit two women has renewed debate over the immunity status of foreign military personnel.
By Cholpon Orozobekova in Bishkek (RCA No. 111, 27-Mar-02)
Kyrgyz deputies are questioning whether American military personnel should continue to enjoy diplomatic military immunity from prosecution after a US driver seriously injured two women in a traffic accident in the capital Bishkek.
The accident occurred when a Toyota Landcruiser, driven by Daniel Marion, a security officer from the nearby US airbase, hit the women at about 10pm on March 14 as they were leaving the Bishkek State University Hostel, where they live.
One of the women, 35-year-old Anara, had to have her spleen removed. The other, named Baktygul, suffered various fractures and broke her pelvis and collarbone. Both received head wounds and are still in hospital.
According to Baktygul, the two women had just started to cross a wide, two-way street when Marion’s car appeared from nowhere. “When I came round I found someone supporting my head and in front I saw a girl in glasses. I understood from what they were saying and the way they looked that they were Americans,” she said.
A student eyewitness, called Aibek, recall seeing one of the women’s bodies literally flying through the air after a loud bang. “I just froze from fear,” he said. “After I saw people get out of the vehicle. I could tell from their speech that they were foreigners. A bit later an ambulance and people from the State Automobile Inspectorate arrived.”
Reports in local newspapers claimed the driver had been drunk at the time.
The real controversy began, however, when it emerged that the interior ministry and US embassy personnel had not allowed automobile inspectorate officials to test the US driver for alcohol.
According to Yekaterina Martushova, a government official, Kygyzstan’s agreement with Washington grants US military personnel the equivalent of diplomatic immunity from prosecution.
The rules governing embassy administrative and technical personnel in the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations apparently rule out forcing an officer to undergo medical tests.
The convention effectively offers such individuals immunity from the host country’s legal jurisdiction, though it not does exempt them from that of their home country.
The interior ministry said the US embassy had written a note, stating the Americans were “observing all the laws and regulations of Kyrgyzstan and greatly regretted the road accident”. However, the letter also claimed that “both women jumped out into the road very unexpectedly”.
Following the accident, the American military command in Kyrgyzstan assured the Kyrgyz side that they had briefed officers and soldiers on the traffic rules and had banned US military personnel from driving. In future they must rely on local drivers. US army investigators have arrived in Bishkek to investigate the accident.
The American armed forces have also taken responsibility for the two women’s medical bills and paid preliminary compensation of 1,000 US dollars towards their healthcare. The Kyrgyz Aki-Press news agency also reported that Washington was prepared to compensate them for damages.
The US forces said they had sent a group of their own military doctors to treat the patients in Bishkek. A local hospital doctor confirmed that American military personnel had visited Anara every day in hospital at the Bishkek National Surgical Centre.
The mother of the second victim said the Americans had been equally attentive to he daughter. She said the automobile inspectorate had explained that the law ruled out trying the serviceman responsible for the accident.
In spite of the Americans’ obvious concern for the two women, the incident has heightened public unease over the country’s military treaty with the US and the privileges that it accords foreign soldiers.
The immunity issue has become the subject of a heated public debate, with a growing chorus asking if it is appropriate for foreign military personnel to enjoy such status.
One deputy in parliament, Kubat Baibolov said the driver in the accident ought to have been tried in Kyrgyzstan. He called for the agreement at the end of last year between the two states to be renegotiated, and immunity status withdrawn for rank and file soldiers.
With more than 1,500 US soldiers now based in Kyrgyzstan, the question is not whether but when another incident between locals and foreigners takes place. The immunity issue is unlikely to go away soon.
Cholpon Orozobekova is an IWPR contributor
——Kuba..
Kyrgyzstan: Car Crash Heightens Unease over US Ties
“A recent traffic accident in which an American soldier hit two women has renewed debate over the immunity status of foreign military personnel….”
———————–
I posted the following on 5Oct:
“Anyone who has experienced military ‘residents’ in their town or city knows that one ends up with a two-headed monster at the door.
First, it’s nice to have a complex that is going to provide additional jobs for people and a revenue cow for local businesses. But, secondly, military are military..and their money has to be spent somewhere. That normally ends up at the local bars… not the local libraries. I suppose, it would be the best of both worlds if that were the case. Historically, it has proven to be a detriment for a community.”
—————
Even in the USA military facilities are not always welcome in a community. Things have changed a lot over the years, but still, local people don’t like to have drunk, unruly military roaming the streets of their town. Commanders don’t like to have their soldiers arrested and then have to come pick them up and pay for the damages they create. But, that’s the nature of the beast.
I suspect that Russian and Kyrgyz soldiers are the same.
Eventually, it will come to a point where Bishkek will be totally ‘off-limits’ or Gansi will just not exist there anymore.. But, you are correct that diplomatic immunity is not the answer to the problem!
The convention effectively offers such individuals immunity from the host country’s legal jurisdiction, though it not does exempt them from that of their home country.
Although unfortunate, the injured victims in this case probably came out better as far as compensation and financial remedy for medical expenses than had they had to deal with trying to get compensation and financial remedy from the military members personal wealth and resources. It comes down to what’s more necessary, seeing punishment or getting what is needed for medical care and hope proper punishment was administered. Tough to argue either way in some instances.
I do understand the issue you are trying to raise, however it has been shown this agreement is not unique and limited to U.S. Military personnel in Kyrgyzstan, as the Kyrgyzstan government has entered into similar agreements with other governments.
The status of forces issue is not unique to the United States and The convention effectively offers such individuals immunity from the host country’s legal jurisdiction, though it not does exempt them from that of their home country.
Although unfortunate, the injured victims in this case probably came out better as far as compensation and financial remedy for medical expenses than had they had to deal with trying to get compensation and financial remedy from the military members personal wealth and resources. It comes down to what’s more necessary, seeing punishment or getting what is needed for medical care and hope proper punishment was administered. Tough to argue either way in some instances.
I do understand the issue you are trying to raise, however it has been shown this agreement is not unique and limited to U.S. and Kyrgyzstan governments. Such agreements are a cause of bad feeling anyplace a country is hosting a large presence of another country’s military within its national borders.
http://www.iwpr.net/?p=rca&s=f&o=177080&apc_state=henirca2002
“The accident occurred when a Toyota Landcruiser, driven by Daniel Marion, a security officer from the nearby US airbase”.
I’m just wondering what was the story with Daniel Marion. I heard that he had “friends in high places” and got away with his crime. Is there a way to find out what happened to him after that?
There were hearsays that those 2 injured women were approached by Kyrgyz police and threatened to keep their mouths shut or else. US Embassy guys gave injured women two hundred dollars each, that was all, actually. Our former corrupted president Askar Akayev was making quite a profit from selling fuel to US airbase and it was in his interest to hush up things. It’s just “Cash Rules Everything”.
I am just wondering, if Jill Metzger’s “friends in high places” could help her to get away in case she was not abducted.
I am too lazy today to bother tracking it down (there is an article about it somewhere on the internet): another more recent (over a year ago?) traffic incident occured in Bishkek — I think it was a group of Marines. After that, no one on base has been allowed to drive themselves — they must always hire drivers (cabs) from then on. Someone (here?) mentioned that there was a time where Jill was supposed to give a group going into town a briefing for the same type of shopping trip that she herself went on, but angered both the driver and the group by putzing around, keeping them waiting for an hour or so, for no apparent reason other than spite — more evidence of bipolar like behavior?
Talk about too lazy! The bit abot no longer being able to drive themselves is burried in the same article Kuba just posted! Sorry.
Back on the tangental topic of SOFAs — did you know that the US has been working all over the world to put in place Bilateral Immunity Agreements (Kyrgyz signed theirs BIA December of 2003) that will remove US nationals from the reach of the International Criminal Court (i.e., not just local but international courts as well)? BIAs have articles worded to explicitly require the existence of a “sending state” relationship (such as when US military and civilian personnel are sent to a receiving state by the US government pursuant to SOFAs or SOMAs), and which say that if person commits a crime in a country where he or she has been sent, he or she is to be returned to the sending country — in other words, there are articles in the BIA that overlap or are equivalent to what we have recently uncovered in SOFAs. Do I detect a trend here?
in other words, there are articles in the BIA that overlap or are equivalent to what we have recently uncovered in SOFAs. Do I detect a trend here?
Posted by: ijosha at October 14, 2006
Yes there is significant similarities between BIA and SOFA, they address the same issues, problems, and concerns.
Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
/*
http://www.babouchka.net/www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/article7865.html?id=487
It turns out that Kyrgyzstan, as it was secured by the bilateral agreement, «has no right to prosecute or press charges against American servicemen», and both governments agreed «not to file claims against each other for incurred losses, deaths or physical injuries to any civil or military personnel». Now it is clear why US Air Force Captain who ran over two ladies, citizens of Kyrgizia, on the streets of the capital, got away with it.
*/
Looks like that US-Kyrgyz bilateral agreement is a double edged sword.
Even if Jill Metzger was abducted in Kyrgyzstan, US has no legal rights to pursue matter further in Kyrgyzstan, in all probability.
/*
http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/local/local_story_285011224.html
Metzger is appearing before a grand jury to validate she was abducted and to OK the Justice Department to investigate in Kyrgyzstan, the article stated. No details were released from the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia as to the grand jury proceedings because they are considered secret, the article stated.
*/
But US Justice Department, from what I see, has no legal grounds to perform investigations in Kyrgyzstan. Becuase that would be a breach of US-Kyrgyz bilateral agreement! Let’s put a question mark here.
/*
(Kyrgyz signed theirs BIA December of 2003)
Posted by: ijosha at October 14, 2006 03:19 PM
*/
Wow, how could I forget about that? Thanks ijosha, for info.
Now it is clear why US Air Force Captain who ran over two ladies, citizens of Kyrgizia, on the streets of the capital, got away with it. Kuba this opinion is as legitimate as any I provide. However, the got away with it certainly does irritate me. If justice and agreement worked as they are supposed to, there would be no-got away with it to discuss.
There is no justice system ever that has been 100% blind to political influences and the possession of financial resources to buy best legal trickery available. Regarding the Captain, there should have been UCMJ offenses he was charged with and for many reasons it is an impossibility to find out through a blog or other informal unofficial means what punishment or accountability he ended up with.
Assuming drunk driving and accident causing injury the appropriate offense would be at minimum be Article 111– Drunken or reckless driving. Maximum punishment is as courts martial directs, and for drunk driving resulting in injury the punishment can include 18 months confinement. The question is what are you expecting as being reasonable punishment, the firing squad?
You are correct the U.S. Justice Department has no jurisdiction to investigate in another Country unless invited to do so. These invitations happen all the time and I have personal knowledge of other Country’s law enforcement being officially allowed into USA to conduct joint investigations. The permissions being sought is probably to meet U.S. admission of evidence requirements pertinent to court deliberations.
Some of the offenses I previously suggested as being appropriate offenses to be charged have the potential of including a death conviction, again it comes to what are you expecting to be reasonable punishment for falsely claiming to be abducted?
1)
/*
However, the got away with it certainly does irritate me.
*/
That was a choice of wording used by web site, not mine:
http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/article7865.html?id=487
KavkazCenter
37 Gorgasali St.
Tbilisi, Georgia 380078
GE
2)
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You are correct the U.S. Justice Department has no jurisdiction to investigate in another Country unless invited to do so.
*/
I know that Kyrgyz Interior Ministry guys were really irritated by Metzger’s “bomb in the pocket” story and with the fact that US Embassy was not cooperative with investigation into JM’s disappearance.
I wonder, how joint investigation is going to work out this time?
3)
Article says Metzger was tortured
http://www.valdostadailytimes.com/local/local_story_285011224.html
Whoa!! Look at the title. And the way tabloid newspaper relays the story.
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The article, which appeared in the Oct. 16 issue of the Air Force Times, quotes Metzger’s father, retired Lt. Col. John Metzger, as saying his daughter was “definitely kidnapped and abducted” and is “tremendously traumatized.”
*/
Lt. Col. John Metzger, is he clairvoyant? I would not use word “definitely” if I were him. Story is still obscure.
Kuba, I think most here are at the least questioning JM’s story. It makes, imho, little sense.
That said, we’re not going to over-react to the statements of her father. Even if her parents were to believe otherwise, it’s highly likely that in public they are going to defend their daughter and spin her story in the best possible light. That’s just human nature.
From the Valdosta Times’s paraphrase of the AF Times article:
“Metzger’s father said he has yet to get the full story from his daughter because she is traumatized, but Metzger was held in captivity for 74 hours before escaping and fleeing her captors on foot, according to the AF Times article. He went on to say Metzger, a two-time winner of the Air Force Marathon women’s division, ran for seven hours through the countryside of Kyrgyzstan — an estimated 35 to 40 miles — before seeking help at a farmhouse in the town of Kant.”
1. The key phrase: “Metzger’s father said he has yet to get the full story from his daughter because she is traumatized…” Uh, yeah. Or something.
2. She ran 35 miles barefoot through a fairly populated area? Why? And she did sub-12-minute miles for 7 hours straight after being starved (lost 17 lbs???) beaten up and traumatized so badly she still can’t speak about it? Give me a break, Dad.
That is what got me, too — that she lost 17 lbs, or 15% of her body weight or something, after being beaten and no sleep for 3 days, but she can run barefoot sub-12 minute miles in the dark night for 7 hours?
I am not a runner by any means – 3 miles will do it for me and I can do that with 9 minute miles if I try real hard – but seems to me that is just superhuman.
I also don’t know anything about the adrenaline rush if you think your life is in danger, but all in all, seems like it would be almost impossible, if you are weak from no food and no sleep and have no shoes and it is either dirt roads or countryside?