I’ve see a lot of stories lately about how wonderful Rudy Giuliani handled the aftermath of 9/11 vs Nagin rebuilding New Orleans. Lorie blogged about it below.
I have to wonder if these people have any understanding of proportions. (sorry Lorie)
Let’s look at the two events.
In New York, a seven square block area of the city was damaged including 2 mammoth buildings falling down. What did Rudy manage to accomplish in the aftermath? He got heavy equipment to come in and haul away the debris. And that took 9 months.
That’s it. No rebuilding of critical infrastructure, no restoration of power to a whole city, no struggling for a year just to return potable water to a city… No rebuilding effort of any type. Just hauling away debris… and that took 9 months. For this he is a Republican Demigod.
– Oh and he made some good speeches.
In New Orleans, the Corps of Engineers destroyed an entire city.
150,000 homes were destroyed and thousands more businesses. Consider this…. 350,000 automobiles were flooded and had to be hauled away… If you placed all the cars destroyed in New Orleans end to end they would reach from the broken 17th street canal floodwall all the way to New York’s ground zero. (go head, do the math)
Then people all around the nation bash Nagin and act like he had that special city rebuilding magic wand but was too stupid to put batteries in it for 12 months. Get real.
Nagin can be faulted for any number for any number of things. But he was dead right in his recent remarks. Everyone is praising Rudy and New York for hauling away some concrete -in 9 months- but damning Nagin and New Orleans for not rebuilding an entire city in just 3 months more. Frankly, it’s stupid.
Let’s see Rudy rebuild a city of a million people in 12 months THEN we can make comparisons.
But you want to change the topic and talk about the rescue effort? OK.
Let’s review, New York had emergency crews from several states who had nice pretty highways to drive on so they could lend a hand. In New York, the first responders had homes to go to so they could recover and work their next shift.
In New Orleans first responders themselves were under 8 feet of water. 80% of the police in New Orleans lost their homes.
What is that number in New York? That would be zero.
Comparing the two is simply folly. The only real backup the New Orleans first responders had was the Coast Guard who had choppers and the Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries who had boats. (BTW as an aside… The LDWF was the unsung hero of the whole event. They did thousands of rescues and never get any ink. I owe them a post… or 12)
By and large the Sept 11 “emergency emergency” (if you will) lasted a few hours. After that it was a mostly an unfruitful recovery effort. In New Orleans the active response went on 24/7 for almost 2 weeks. Again, no comparison.
In New York Rudy and the “incredibly competent” emergency management folks got 343 firemen killed… And a few hundred more emergency responders from the NYPD and other agencies too.
Rudy never had to answer any questions about that. (rightfully so BTW don’t get me wrong) But to hold the NYC response as a model of brilliance is letting patriotism blind you to reality. They had more than their share of problems… It’s just politically incorrect to mention them so we as a nation have chosen not to.
And let’s talk about those speeches Rudy was able to make. Why didn’t we see Nagin make those same speeches? For starters, there was no communication in the whole city.
Local authorities couldn’t talk to each other much less play to the camera! Rudy looked great standing there behind the podium in nice fresh clothes all shaved and bathed speaking on national T.V. I’m glad he had a nice clean studio he could retreat to.
In New Orleans people were trying to get food and water – oh and trying not to drown.
When Mayor Nagin could get thru to a T.V. camera, he used it to ask regular citizens with boats to meet him at a Sam’s Club parking lot so they could go pluck people off rooftops. He was a little too busy to do Larry King and David Letterman.
I’m not defending Nagin in any way.
What I am doing is explaining that the scope of the events was too dissimilar (and asymmetrical) for them to be compared in any meaningful way.
(and read the postscript before you comment)
Postscript: Yes, I fully expect to be called every name in the book over this post. Get over it. I know, I know I’ve broken some taboos by daring to question NYC’s response. So sue me.
Nagin was under a very harsh (cough partisan cough) spotlight even before the storm arrived. Rudy got mountains of patriotic sympathy. If the two men were in each other’s cities I doubt history would have changed much.
9/11 (whether you like it or not) was child’s play compared to the Corps flooding New Orleans. If you think Rudy making a few good speeches and getting some concrete hauled away was worth him being President then don’t let me rain on your parade with facts and reason.
But don’t try to convince me that Nagin is to be damned for not rebulding a major city in 12 months but Rudy should be praised for gettiing the debris hauled away in 9 months.
I just not buying it.
P.S. Don’t bother mention the evacuation.
P. P. S. If anyone wants to talk about the 60 Minutes quote, you’d be well served watching the video to get the context. He was making the point that the PUBLIC streets were clear but that they city could not go on private land w/o permission. When the reporter beat him up for not clearing the private land, Nagin compared the rebuiding efforts. And he had a point.
Lorie adds:I am sorry I don’t have time to respond to this post point by point right now, but I did want to say that Paul has more knowledge of Katrina than anyone I know, possibly of anyone in the entire blogosphere, and I have no dispute with him over the facts on the ground in New Orleans over the past year. When he asks whether others commenting on Katrina have a clue what they are talking about, well, we probably don’t, especially so far as the specifics go. What we do all have, though, is a view of the event that is not shaded so much by personal experience and intimate knowledge, but of what the perceptions are of how well each mayor inspired those working under them, and the public in general. In politics, perceptions are, unfortunately, as important as reality. Actually, often they are more important than reality.
I do know that after 9/11 Giuliani was judged (be it fairly as I contend or unfairly as Paul does) to have done an excellent job, more than anything, calming the fears of a nation. Paul talked about how much greater an area was affected by Katrina. That is physical. 9/11 was every bit as much a psychological attack, as it was a physical one, and it was on the entire country. I live in North Carolina and we have had some pretty nasty hurricanes hit us, but obviously nothing like Katrina. After Katrina, though, I was not consumed by fear that we might be hit next. When those planes hit those towers, though, the thought that other attacks might soon follow on one of the many military bases in my area was real, and remains so to this day when I hear a plane buzz over my house much lower than usual. During the 9/11 recovery I remember very real fears that additional attacks could be coming at any time.
There were many differences between the two challenges. I might be wrong, but I don’t recall getting around the clock reports letting us know that 9/11 attacks were on the way. I do seem to remember some advance warning that Katrina was coming, although it was not clear exactly where she would hit.
Those speeches that were made after 9/11 can be ridiculed by some, but they were incredibly important. I guess this goes back to the perception thing, but sometimes perceptions have very real consequences. Nagin cursing the government and making some of the outrageous statements he did making excuses for looters, etc., are separate from the reality of whatever he accomplished (or did not accomplish) on the ground. Paul points out that Nagin was not able to communicate freely, and I do not doubt that, but Nagin did make it to the microphone enough to sow seeds of panic and confusion. Maybe Rudy would have done the same, in Nagin’s situation, although that is something I am not buying. .Rudy calmed the nation by having a take charge style that made most feel like he had things under control, to the extent they could be. If 9/11 was an easier challenge, as Paul believes, he may be right, although his memory of 9/11 is evidently much different than mine. But even if that is so, it does not change the perception of the public of the two mayors’ responses to the those challenges. I contend that the perceptions that many of those in the nation have will do more to help Giuliani’s presidential aspirations than hinder them. I disagree with Paul in that I think those perceptions were largely deserved.
Paul Replies:I’m not really sure how to respond. The comparison is obviously fatally flawed.
If some people think Rudy’s speech making ability is worthy of putting in the oval office so be it. (Assuming he runs yada yada yada…) I may or might not vote for him… But if I do, his media blitz after 9/11 will be but a small factor. Did he handle it well? Sure. Obviously. Does he deserve the roses presently being thrown at his feet? Not to me but YMMV
Kevin adds (11:10PM): Wizbang is moving to a new server tonight. This means that any comments you leave in this thread tonight will be lost. You can keep commenting, but they won’t be in the comment section when you come looking again tomorrow…
I’ve been tracking the rebuilding at Ground Zero as well as the recovery along the Gulf Coast, and there really isn’t any comparison between what Nagin and Rudy had to contend with.
There are a couple of issues though with Nagin’s comments:
1) Nagin correctly notes that Ground Zero reconstruction is still delayed – although preparatory work is underway to build the Freedom Tower, the transit hub and memorial/museum. Those structures are expected to be built by 2009, though the full site isn’t expected to be built out until 2012 at the earliest.
7 WTC is the only permanent structure rebuilt that was destroyed at Ground Zero – and that was done by Silverstein without government interference.
Ground Zero is 16 acres. Add another couple hundred acres if you include the buildings and surrounding area affected by the collapses – damaged buildings and those than were affected by the smoke and debris that infiltrated every pore of buildings surrounding the collapsed towers.
New Orleans is magnitudes larger in terms of the area affected.
2) Nagin likes to point out the bureaucratic delays affecting rebuilding in the Gulf Coast. I’d given Nagin the monkier Whiplash because he reversed his position on where and how to rebuild so many times in those early months that it could make your head spin. If you can’t make up your mind and you’re in charge, how is anyone else supposed to deal with the situation.
Who needs to blame bureaucratic politics and red tape when the guy in charge in NOLA caused a crisis in confidence all by his lonesome.
3) Nagin has done a poor job of dealing with those issues that are wholly within his control. Rebuilding and restoring infrastructure (including basic services like sanitation, fire, police, and health) has to be a top priority, and thus far it’s been spotty. Getting into battles with Gov. Blanco doesn’t help matters.
4) Rudy was term limited and could not stay on. People forget that 9/11 was actually primary election day in the City and that election was delayed. After the attacks, there was a move to change the law to let Rudy stay on, but that didn’t get very far. No one knows how Rudy would have handled the reconstruction and rebuilding in the four years since he left office (he left in 1Q of 2002).
5) Nagin was reelected by NOLA despite his poor record during and after the hurricane and flood. That’s because the alternatives were worse, if that can be imagined.
6) Nagin keeps finding ways to blame others for his failures and shortcomings, which gets back to his battles with Blanco – the slow pace of rebuilding is due to red tape in applying for federal funds. Mississippi, for example, has done a better job applying for housing programs and got their acts together earlier. Perhaps that was due to the fact that Mississippi was less damaged or that Barbour was more connected to the WH than Blanco, but they could have easily contact MS and tapped into how they ran their program to speed the application and disbursements.
7) Nagin continues to face ongoing worries and concerns that the levees and flood control could fail again despite the hundreds of millions spent to rebuild the levees to their prior condition (and who knows just how strong that really is). That leads to businesses and residents choosing to stay away until they know that the situation has stabilized. That affects the tax base and services that can be provided. NYC didn’t have the same concerns.
Sigh…
Jim…
(just in case)
Follow this link then click “All 60 min videos”
then in the center scroll down and click “Ray Nagin’s New Orleans Tour”
That’s the one I’ve been watching. If you’re seeing something different, describe/link it.
CBS has recut it like 10 different ways.
The car is (on its side) on private property.
The house has about 3 boards on the curb. “Partailly washed it the street” is overselling it.
Do you see something I don’t?
Up here in Michigan we have a color man for Tiger’s games on radio – a former backup catcher who batted about 150.
Almost daily he gives batting tips to Pudge, a career 300 hitter and one of the top 3 catchers of all time.
Something wrong here.
Which brings me to the press, 60 minutes, Sam Donaldson wanabees and the questions that started this mess. Good grief, if I had been through what Nagin has in the past year, I would not do press interviews unarmed.
The only common denominator is Bush. After 911, both Bush and Giuliani were reassuring and inspirational to a shocked nation. After Katrina, Bush was trashed along with everyone else. Same guy.
The press looks for the story they want, often to fuel ratings. They have not yet owned up to all the BS we were fed during Katrina (Superdome murders, snipers, deadly waters, etc.) nor admitted that their BS Chicken Little bit probably did as much to slow relief as Brown.
Nagin could have turned the tables on the press: “Indeed sir, and while you were reporting baby rapes and shootings by armed gangs and snipers, did you realize that as a result, certain response teams had to wait to be supported by police or guard?”
Further you’re lying when you say he “lashes out”
He says it with a chuckle. That’s on the video plain as day.
Don’t bullshit me.
Good comments as always lawhawk…
Ironically people want to turn this into a battle where they bash Nagin and I (supposedly) defend him.
I guess they don’t know how many times I’ve trashed him right here on this blog. And frankly, I’m better at trashing him because I know more about him. lololol
Anwyay it was an effrort to compare and contrast the 2 guys. As you say Rudy was headed out the door… I should have mentioned that as another way the comparison is flawed.
good to see you around
P
and you know… seeing you around reminds me I must have lost a bookmark or something… I have not swung by your blog in months…
For people who don’t know, lawhawk has (or he had) potentially the best blogosphere coverage of the storm for someone who didn’t leave anywhere close. I used to go to his blog to get updates on stuff only 60 miles to my east.
Brass tacks.
Rudi didn’t blame the Federal government for the attacks and try to shift away resposiblity and take the “I’m a victim” stance. He stood up and took charge. Even if standing up and taking charge is just a nice speech, he did that.
What happened before, during and after Katrina rest on the general incompetence of everyone involved in someone not standing up and saying we can get through this, we need to work together. What happened was everyone stood up and started pointing fingers – and what did that do to fix problems? Nothing.
Action vs inaction, no matter the scale, I think its clear who would have the better outcome.
Had Rudi froze in his tracks in fear and did nothing, not allowed any responders or help from the Federal government in for several days, and Nagin had taken heed, evacuated the city, and got the federal government on the ball ahead of schedule – would not Naggin be hailed as a hero for saving all those lives and being on the ball?
Action vs inaction. History on this is clear. You can argue any aspect, fine tune any theory, play up any conspiracy and point fingers at whoever you want but the facts on the ground are there. Rudi acted right away, Nagins did not. There is no other comparision that needs to be made to the scope of the disaster or the lenght of time or amount of effort needed to recover – whn looking at how the tow men are compared for being the leader during a time of crisis, one acted, the other did not.
Paul, you’re not only stupid, you’re a liar. You deleted my earlier post, too, although you told rickinstl:
“No rickinstl I deleted you because you’re an asshole.
Why am I leaving everyone else who disagrees with me and only deleteing you???”
For the benefit of all others, in my deleted post I told you you were a schmuck, and that N.O. voters who voted for thier corrupt mayor deserved exactly what they got from him. So shut the fuck up and stop whining like a chocolate-cated pussy.
Thank god there is a federal body we can blame… It would be a shame if we had to take responsibility for our own indecisions/inactions.
Hmmmm.
@ Hotshit
You’re lucky. Paul et al have completely deleted every single comment I’ve ever made over the last year.
Oh no! I’m been edited out.
Well I’ve been meaning to do my own blogging anyways.
Cya all later.
Feeling a bit…peckish, Paul?
The core difference between Giuliani and Nagin, all things considered, is that Giuliani responded well and responsibly in press conferences and left the politics out of it. He went out of his way to be clear, practical and realistic.
Nagin, on the other hand, didn’t even know what was happening before he started throwing rocks at FEMA, and he hasn’t stopped since. It’s all Washington’s fault. It’s Bush’s fault. It’s FEMA’s fault. It’s the Corps of Engineers fault. It’s whitey’s fault. Blanco made it even worse, pointing fingers at Washington between sob sessions in her private office. She blocked federal efforts to send help, complained bitterly about Bush, and generally left the impression she was a helpless puddle of self-pity.
The combined result, interspersed with ’round the clock video feeds from the Sports Arena, sniping, looting and shooting, submerged schoolbuses, rampant speculation from the MSM and AWOL first responders, gun confiscations, and a complete lack of pragmatism from these two public officials was a public relations disaster which appalled millions of us. Facts are facts, and the comparison between 9/11 and NOLA came from Nagin, not me. I’ve never confused the two.
Your needlessly hostile, Chicken-hawk attitude (never thought I’d use that particular phrase seriously) suggests only one conclusion: You’re apparently the only person on earth qualified to comment on the NOLA disaster. The rest of us have no right to an opinion on the subject. We’re so unworthy, and so ungrateful. Bullshit.
Maybe you could brush up on your manners a little bit, too, while you’re at it.
Never like to be late to a party, but….
Many, many valid thoughts above. I’ll just add that I find the accusation that the “Corps of Engineers destroyed an entire city” a bit over the top. “Mother nature”/God/Karma/etc. at regular intervals proves that all of mankind’s efforts are folly compared to the true powers in this world. Making our country, much less the world, safe from every form of conceivable disaster (hurricane, tsunami, earthquake, tornado, fire, etc.) is a non-event. Those of us who live, or have lived, in places frequented by natural disasters know that we’re making choices, and we have to live with the consequences of those choices, good, bad, or otherwise. Blaming Katrina on the Corp of Engineers is ridiculous….
I’m curious as to why my comment was deleted.
I may have been critical of your piece and likened it to Charmin(R). But I didn’t attack you personally. My point has validity to the discussion.
Nagin deflected criticism at the expense of the most reprehensible attack on American soil next to Pearl Harbor. That, in itself, makes him an asshole.
Whine all you want about viewing the video over and over. But, I know what’s truly on the ground of NOLA, since I am “on the ground” in NOLA.
Comments left after Friday evening may have been deleted due to the server move. Since I warned everyone they won’t be restored…
Thank you for the FYI.
Yeah, 30+ comments which showed Paul knows as much about the WTC cleanup as he thinks we know about NOLA being deleted was a tragedy, unparalleled in the history of blogdom.
Not to mention any comment which disagrees with Paul’s orthodoxy is magickally disappeared.
Nice.
And BTW Paul, the comment I had previously was entered AFTER the server move, ya tool.