It seems fitting that so many news stories leading up to the 4th of July involve issues of patriotism. The question of whether or not newspapers should have published classified national security information raises the question, among others, of whether the American media should be patriotic and choose sides. For many years, this was not even a question. Recently, however, it has been the subject of much debate. Following 9/11 there was even controversy over some news anchors who chose to wear American flag pins on their lapels.
Many on the left have cited patriotism as the basis for their questioning of the war and of the administration. Most recently Richard Stengel, Managing Editor of Time invoked patriotism:
The line between dissent and disloyalty, between harmful revelations and vital ones, is murky. Often we never really know. But I would argue that the judicious questioning of the conduct and morality of war is the furthest thing from disloyalty: it is an expression of deep patriotism and the essence of responsible citizenship.
While some on the left are embracing patriotism in an attempt to explain their actions, others recoil at the very notion of patriotic expression. According to recent entries, some at Daily Kos don’t want to appear patriotic, lest their patriotism be interpreted as support for a president they hate. It goes beyond the President himself for many though, and extends to the military and American society in general. As one Kos diarist put it, “How could I in good conscience stand to embrace the lyrics “I’m proud to be an American” in the very same week we learned U.S. soldiers raped an Iraqi woman then murdered her and her family to cover up the crime?”
When it comes to patriotism, I guess it is easier being conservative. As best I can tell, patriotism is pretty straight forward and uncomplicated for most of us on the right. It is for me, anyway. Maybe I am just not nuanced enough to have a problem with patriotism. I have enough sense to know that even if a few soldiers are found to be guilty of horrible crimes, they do not represent the vast majority of the very wonderful men and women wearing the uniform of this country. It is important that we thank those doing such a great job and let them know we appreciate it. I also recognize that even though this country is not perfect, it is far superior to any other. That fence so many people want built is certainly not intended to keep people inside the country.
For those on the left worried that if they wave a flag tomorrow they might be thought to be supporting the President of the United States, or the U.S. military, or American capitalism, relax. Fly the flag, sing some patriotic songs, shoot off some fireworks, eat some hot dogs. I did when Bill Clinton was President and no one that I know got the impression that I was endorsing him. One thing it seems most everyone, right and left, can agree on is the beauty of the U.S. Constitution and appreciation for the freedoms we are so blessed to experience. I encourage everyone on the right and left alike to celebrate what you find great about this country.
Update: Betsy Newmark took this subject and ran with it. She takes a look at some survey results regarding patriotism that are very interesting.
Update II: This post at Sweetness & Light about Cindy Sheehan’s take on the Star Spangled Banner is another example to add ot those of the Kos crowd.
This is cross-posted at Right Wing News where I am guest blogging today.
Clock Maker— Shhhh. We’re not supposed to talk about that until they give the secret signal.
Steve Crickmore – yeah, he said that. And
that was before he became president and took on all the responsibilities and burdens of being the commander-in-chief.
And I think he’s been quite clear: we leave when the Iraqis are fully capable of defending themselves. What’s so damn difficult about understanding that?
So what’s your point? Or was that just another trademark liberal gratuitous swipe with a comment/quote taken out of context?
And by the way, I notice we’re STILL in Kosovo – a place where Clinton took us and NEVER provided an exit strategy.
Let’s:
“Be kind to our web-footed friends,
For a Duck might be somebody’s mother…”
Are we done flinging poo yet? Or are the Yahoos still in control?
mak44 and Lee keep saying they are all about teh love and teh real patriotism.
But I don’t think it means what they think it means.
What they never mention is that the man who made that sneering remark was a fat, gluttonous slob who was pursued all his life by a pathological fear of death.
I propose to prove that that baboon on watch is morally superior to that fat poltroon who made that wisecrack.
Patriotism is the most practical of all human characteristics.
But in the present decadent atmosphere patriots are often too shy to talk about it–as if it were something shameful or an irrational weakness.
But patriotism is NOT sentimental nonsense. Nor something dreamed up by demagogues. Patriotism is as necessary a part of man’s evolutionary equipment as are his eyes, as useful to the race as eyes are to the individual.
A man who is NOT patriotic is an evolutionary dead end. This is not sentiment but the hardest of logic.Robert A. Heinlein, April 5, 1973, lecture at the Naval Academy
Whoops… blockquote tags messed up.
>>>”So what’s your point? Or was that just another trademark liberal gratuitous swipe with a comment/quote taken out of context?
And by the way, I notice we’re STILL in Kosovo – a place where Clinton took us and NEVER provided an exit strategy.”
No exit strategy in Kosovo. USA still there – Bad. (Clinton’s bad.)
No exit strategy in Iraq. USA still there. – Good. (Bush is good.)
Glad we cleared that up.
THE WAR (SCORE) CARD
World War Two:
Duration of USA involvement – December 7, 1941 to August 15, 1945 – 44 months (approx.)
Result: Axis Powers – Germany, Italy and Japan defeated.
Mussolini, Hitler dead.
Casualties:
oviet Union* 8,668,000 16,900,000 25,568,000
China 1,324,000 10,000,000 11,324,000
Germany 3,250,000 3,810,000 7,060,000
Poland 850,000 6,000,000 6,850,000
Japan 1,506,000 300,000 1,806,000
Yugoslavia 300,000 1,400,000 1,700,000
Rumania* 520,000 465,000 985,000
France* 340,000 470,000 810,000
Hungary* 750,000
Austria 380,000 145,000 525,000
Greece* 520,000
Italy 330,000 80,000 410,000
Czechoslovakia 400,000
Great Britain 326,000 62,000 388,000
USA 295,000 295,000
Holland 14,000 236,000 250,000Belgium 10,000 75,000 85,000
Finland 79,000 79,000
Canada 42,000 42,000
India 36,000 *** 36,000
Australia 39,000 39,000
Spain** 12,000 10,000 22,000
Bulgaria 19,000 2,000 21,000
New Zealand 12,000 12,000
South Africa 9,000 9,000
Norway 5,000 5,000
Denmark 4,000 4,000
Total circa 61 Million
The Global War on Terror:
Duration of USA involvement- September 11, 2001 to Present – 58 months
Result: The Axis of Evil not defeated. Hussein deposed from power, Iraq in midst of civil war. Insurgency still wreaking havoc. Baghdad not secured after three years of USA troops occupying it. Iran working toward nuclear weapon. North Korea testing long range missle to deliever nuclear weapon. US/EU talks with Iran ongoing. Negotiations with North Korea non-existent.
Casualties: http://icasualties.org/oif/
The facts speak for themselves.
Exit strategy my aunt Hanna,theres only one exit strategy its called Victory,thats some thing people like macoo. wouldn’t understand. He’s perfectly suited to the cut and run crowd.
No, facts do not speak for themselves.
Facts just lie there.
PEOPLE speak.
Whereas you….
Well, I’ll be kind.
By the bithead Your post I have one word for you and thats BRAVO!
ONE MORE TIME: We leave Iraq when the Iraqis are strong enough to manage their own defense. By the (leaked) words of Gen. Casey and by the statements of the Iraqi government, that seems like it may well happen by the end of 2008.
WHAT IS SO DAMN DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT, LIBERALS?
Or has your hatred of Bush and conservatives so blinded you to the obvious that …
ah, screw it. Never mind. I’ll go explain it to my dogs. They’ll understand much better than you liberals would.
Patriotism means putting God, our Country and our Flag above all else . Except our families and loved ones. And Our President, who if he is weakened would cause us to lose all the above.
Those liberals are now using the Constitution to attack him which is not how it was intended, if they want to put a piece of paper above our elected Leader then they are going against centuries of tradition. But we Republicans will not allow that to happen if we can regain the majority opinion to our side.
Because, you know, reconstruction and civil peace began on August 15, 1945. (That Berlin airlift thing is a myth.) Yes, children, on the morning of August 16, 1945 it was all over except for the parades.
Iraq has always had an exit strategy… it just hasn’t had a *time line*. Leaving the country with a functioning government has *always* been the plan. You’d think, you really *really* would think that liberals would agree that this is a GOOD thing. I mean, that’s a liberal thing, right? Social justice and democracy and equality. But apparently they don’t. Rather than push for that result they (some noisy ones anyhow) just want us to go home now.
I have to conclude that they do IN FACT believe in justice and equality and the establishment of liberal democracies… they just don’t believe that anyone not as enlightened as they are can achieve those things. Belief that those people over there are living people, just like in America, is naive… they aren’t living people just like us but *different*.
Respecting the differences means ending this foolish plan to establish democracy in a middle eastern setting and get the hell out before more Americans die. (Iraqis will keep dying, but who the heck cares.)
Mouth
Are you advocating we fight the Islamofascists like we fought WWII?
Where do you want the B-52’s to start, and which cities do you want nuked?
Shall we start with, say, Mecca?
Result: The Axis of Evil not defeated. Hussein deposed from power, Iraq in midst of civil war. Insurgency still wreaking havoc. Baghdad not secured after three years of USA troops occupying it. Iran working toward nuclear weapon. North Korea testing long range missle to deliever nuclear weapon. US/EU talks with Iran ongoing. Negotiations with North Korea non-existent.
WWII — left NOT working against the US cause.
GWOT — left ACTIVELY working against the US cause.
-=Mike
Cannon Mouth
We have not yet begun to fight. The Spartans and Thespaeans gave us a good start at Thermopylae in 480 B.C., thus saving Western civilization in its infancy. This skirmish in Iraq is just the world awaking to the true nature of the enemy. Europe will awaken, but as in WWI and WWII, they will pay a dear price before their hearts believe what their eyes see. The enemy is a death cult of enslavement; islam is intolerant of individual liberty, equality of sexes, freedom of religion. Islam and/or its followers must be destroyed, crushed, annhialated. It is not a belief system with which America, or any freedom loving people, can peacefully coexist.
Your view is very short-sighted Cannon. You badly underestimate the Christian soldier. God’s love for the Jewish people, who have fought these inhuman beasts successfully with one hand tied behind them, may yet show mankind The Light through these, again, dark times.
All Christians and Jews should pray for God’s judgment on these unGodly followers of hatred and evil, and that we be blessed to be the weapon in His Hands. His will be done.
Buttplug aka 2lane trash
“All Christians and Jews should pray for God’s judgment on these unGodly followers of hatred and evil, and that we be blessed to be the weapon in His Hands. His will be done.”
From that drool that you posted, you are certifibly INSANE. You are ONE RELIGIOUS KOOK.
mak44,
If you are intellectually honest, you would celebrate dissent, right? The left should be happy when more people show dissent, esp dissent against the corrupt ideology of the left. Or do you want people acquiese to the leftist propaganda as done in communist countries?
America is the greatest country on earth and in history. That ‘s a simple fact. I am an immigrant to this country. So all those foreigners who don’t think America is the greatest country, then they don’t have to come here. If you don’t like this country, then feel free to go to a better country of your choice.
Mak44 is simply project his own hate on other people. He is a perfect example of what is wrong with the modern left.
mak44
you are certifibly INSANE. You are ONE RELIGIOUS KOOK.
And Islamists are … ?
Isn’t it educational to see what sets off mak44?
Religious kook? My what a tollerant POS you are Mak. We really don’t need to wait for God’s judgement to come if we simply ENFORCE THE FRICKEN LAWS ALREADY IN THE DAMN BOOKS. The Traitors and despicable democrats would piss their pants the second they saw one of their fellow cowards swinging from a rope. Democrat perpetual fraud would instantly die and they would be forced to realize that us Americans are not going to let them shame themselves and our Country in the proccess. They will actually have to work for a living and think and I don’t mean “think of lies”. “It’s hard work” , Which is why George W Bush is doing. Democrats can’t put a bullet in the ass they just fed from.
Darleen
There is no significant number of islamic terrorists among us. But there are far too many religious & ethnocentric bigots and looneies like 2lanetrash in our midst for the good of this nation. The insanity illustrated in his/her post is far more likely to take our country down the toilet than any terrorist could ever hope to accomplish.
You imply that Islamists, over 1 billion of the world’s population are “insane.” This is just another aspect of the fanacticism of 2lanetrash & his religious kookism.
You are not a well woman.
RobLACa
Your post speaks for itself; another raving ranting kook.
I am amazed that the folks at Wizbang, a number of whom are at least rational, don’t find some way to ban you lest the whole lot of them look like the asshole you are.
Mak,
Spoken like a true coward. Why dould anyone ban me for speaking my mind? Especially when facts always prove you wrong and a liar?
“ban you lest the whole lot of them look like the asshole you are”.
You really know ho to strong arm folks don’t ya?
You are just like Hilary Clinton behind closed doors, an evil bitter maniacal fraud afraid of their own shadow and even more afraid of the facts and the truth spoken about them. They must shut them up because they have a date with destiny and nothing better get in their way.
“Find some way” ? Sounds so much like the democrats desparation as they “SAY ANYTHING” “DO WHATEVER IT TAKES” and now we can add “FIND SOME WAY” TO THE LIST OF HOW TO DECEIVE THE PUBLIC AND TAKE BACK POWER.
mak44
YOUR MUCH TOO STUPID TO KNOW HOW DUMB YOUR ARE.
RobLACa
You just prove my point above,man. You just ain’t right in the head.
A small sample of your silliness: ” You are just like Hilary Clinton behind closed doors, an evil bitter maniacal fraud afraid of their own shadow… “
I am awed that you have been behind “closed doors” w/ Hillary. I imagine you hear voices as well. Seeing “visions” can’t be far behind, if that isn’t happening already.
So they do “Holiday Passes” at the institutions in California?
Mak44
“I am awed that you have been behind “closed doors” w/ Hillary”.
Mo Mak44 you are just plagued with “Democritis” the inability to interpret what you read as it is written and just talking out of your ass (lies).By all means do not stop I will thank you come election time if it’s any consolation for another democrat defeat well done.
Roto-Rooter 1, please report to this thread: sewage backing up and has overtaken all posts. You are cleared to operate BFO* is deemed necessary. After dislogding all Yahoos, contact Houyhnhnm Central for further orders.
*Blood For Odin
MAK
Thank you for the compliment. I am a fool for Jesus, and take Him at His Word, especially when it comes to the consequences of evil. I know He loved those thieves who died with Him, and He did not stop the taking of their lives (wonder why?). If you are incapable of distinguishing good and evil, you are truly lost. I am commanded by Him Whom I follow to hate evil, and to leave he who will not hear His message of Love to destroy their very own soul. That free will thing can be a hard bitch – you decided already. Sorry for you I am. Pray for you I will. Please abuse me some more so God knows I’m trying.
P.S. The answer is that the law of the land must be obeyed, and the wages of sin must be paid. Somebody is running up quite an evil debt load, with no positive moral cash flow.
Happy 230th Birthday America. Thank you, all my fellow veterans, for your unselfish service to freedom. Special thank to you, my son, for your service in Iraq at FOB Paliwoda. God is with you. Free will is His gift to each of us. Keep fighting.
Happy 230th Birthday America. Thank you, all my fellow veterans, for your unselfish service to freedom. Special thanks to you, my son, for your service in Iraq at FOB Paliwoda. God is with you. Free will is His gift to each of us. Keep fighting. Those who seek death deserve it.
Beautiful and well-spoken comments, Lorie. Much like the woman who wrote them. Excellent post!
Prediction: While the right bashes the left, and the left bashes the right, a big fat nuke is gonna go off right between all of your eyes and you’ll spend your last dying breath blaming the other side for your not being able to see the nuke coming.
Good riddens to you all.
Twits.
Mak44
You are not paying attention. Willful?
Islam is a religion. Islamism is an ideology akin to fascism. Even if only 10% of the world’s moslems were Islamists, it still means something like ten million Islamists. There were not that many Nazi’s in Germany and we know what refusing to take THEM seriously led to.
I just don’t understand the bedwetting obsession with Christians by American Leftists.
Let me know when Pissed-off Presbyterians or Maddened Methodists start kidnapping people off the “It’s a Small World” ride at Disneyland and videotaping their beheadings while shouting GOD is Great!
Until then, get a f*cking clue, will ya?
Big Mo.. Bush’s Where’s the exit strateg ? was not so much about the wisdom or lack of it
in Bush’s Iraqi policy, but in reply to Clock Maker’s comment, about locking up war dissenters,that many prominent Republicans were very quick to dissent from President Clinton’s successful and contained war policy in Kosovo (I know you disagree on this) … But as far as Iraq, goes I think we are under an enormous strategic misperception in the words of Gore Vidal, Bush saying we at war on terror is like saying “we are having a war on dandruff…it’s endless and pointless”or less graphically in Bush’s own words in the October 11, 2000 debate with AL Gore.
BUSH- “Maybe I’m missing something here. I mean, we’re going to have kind of a nation building core from America? Absolutely not. Our military is meant to fight and win war. That’s what it’s meant to do. And when it gets overextended, morale drops.”
And so comes the question:
Has MAK revealed himself to be a anti-religious bigot?
Crickmore
Interestingly, dandruff, while annoying and may cause others to point and snicker, doesn’t usually issue fatwas and behead infidels.
Vidal has never gotten over the fact that while he’s fawned over as a celeb, he’s failed twice with voters. His celebrated “sassiness” is really a much bitter brew.
Posted by: mak44 at July 3, 2006 03:44 PM
Wow, take a day away and things get really batty.
Now mak, take a moment, go back, and read what Lee said without the Rose colored glasses. I was merely calling him on practicing what he was supposedly preaching against. Really, is wishing any kind of injury to someone else anything other then hateful?
Then you melt in to name calling and hateful speech as well. Really, does it serve your point or are you incapable of ignoring the taunts of others and moving on?
The whole patriotism thing is a strange animal for me, actions speak louder then words in that regard, so your actions should support what you say. Many on the left and right have lots of words, but few actions to really support those words.
Kind of like the whole chickenhawk crap. Do you really know me to know whether or not I was ever in the service? No, but I don’t wear it on my sleeve as well. I spent 6 years in the early eighties in the U.S. Navy, 4 of which was spent going to interesting places and doing interesting things.
So, don’t assume anything about me and don’t lump me in with anyone. I may share some of the views held here, but I may share some of yours as well, so I don’t fit into one of your convenient little pots. I don’t assume much about you, but when you, or anyone else for that matter, devolves into basic talking points from either side, you just pigeon hole yourself.
Most of the liberal/left responders here have at one time or another provided links to support their view. But Lee has never, to my recollection, ever provided any sort of substance to support his rants, and when called on it, he has either ignored the request, or slinked off to another posting to spew more dribble everywhere. If he is what you are defending, the ranks need thinning.
DavidB – Sorry, but your repeated questions aren’t worth responding to. If you want to spin that into some sort of denial on my part – spin away. My guess is that you are in fact “LoveAmerica Idiot” or one of the other nonsensical trolls I ignore.
Lee, hilarious response!
My questions are not worth responding to, because you can’t you troll. You have never, NEVER, backed a single assertion you have made with fact.
Just dribbling garbage spewed forth, it’s not even qamusing any more, just pathetic.
Read above again, if you can, I’m my own person.
But keep guessing, like you do at life and the reality there in.