The fallout from the Jack Abramoff corruption scandal has all of Washington atwitter about congressional reform–everything from proposals to restrict travel perks and lunches with lobbyists to a potential shakeup in the Republican House leadership.
A subtheme of the controversy involves not a shakeup but a shakedown–of Indian tribes by Mr. Abramoff, who used casino cash to throw money around town as well as to line his own pockets richly. The common perception is that once again the white man has cheated the red man.
Perhaps a few expressions of sympathy are in order. Yet Indians would benefit much more from their own sweeping reforms. The Abramoff rip-off should be the least of their worries. The time has come to abolish reservations for the good of the people who live on them.
In the American imagination, grinding poverty is often a picture of urban slums full of broken families, abandoned apartments and back-alley drug deals. But an equally valid portrait might focus on the rural squalor of the rez. Of the 10 poorest counties in the U.S., seven of them are contained wholly or largely on reservations in Arizona, North Dakota and South Dakota.
Professional victimologists offer no shortage of explanations for this miserable state of affairs, but most of their analysis boils down to a core grievance: The federal government stole land from the Indians by conquest and treaty. Although Indians once were able to obtain title to specific parcels within reservations, this practice ended in 1934–an act that essentially turned the reservations into not-so-little housing projects on the prairie.
This is something I’ve brought up several times here on Say Anything, both in relation to the Abramoff scandal and Indian casinos. Here in North Dakota I live fairly close to two separate Indian reservations. My job gives me occassion to travel to both several times a year, so I can tell you from personal experience that these communities rival even some of the worst inner-city slums (which I have also observed in New York, Chicago and L.A.) in terms of squalid living conditions and rank criminality. And while that reality is bad enough, it is made all the worse when you see that many of these communities exist within sight of gleaming multi-million dollar gambling establishments. Which is why I’ve said in the past that apart from the Abramoff shenanigans the politicians who took money from Indian gambling interests should be ashamed for accepting contributions from such an exploitive enterprise that clearly isn’t doing a thing to help the people it was intended to.
The reservation system isn’t helping the Indians and neither is the gambling.
Here in North Dakota we have an unemployment rate of just under 3%, which is one of the lowest rates in the nation. Yet on our state’s Indian reservations the unemployment rate is hovering in the mid-sixties. There is no reason for that number to be so high in an economic environment where business are not just calling for workers, but demanding them.
To me, this all indicates one thing: We are doing Indians a grave disservice by keeping them on the reservation. Which isn’t to say that we’re forcing them to say on the reservation, because we aren’t. But we are giving the incentives to stay there along the lines of government entitlement and special priveleges, and that has made the problem worse. The handling of the reservation system to this point has only created a series of isolated communities where dependence on government welfare programs is the rule, not the exception. I just don’t see why that should continue.
You can read more from Rob Port at SayAnythingBlog.com
Mac:
While indigenous peoples gained and held territories by various means, they had no concept of individual land ownership. The land belonged to the tribe, rather than individuals, but all members of the tribe had use of the land.
What people are you talking about? There are thousands of different Native American groups; what you are saying is a massive generalization. There certainly were ideas of ownership among Native American groups…Cohokia, for starters, attests to that (It was a large settlement with fortified walls, and may have been what we would consider a “state”). There are, of course, many examples. Native American cultures cannot be simply mashed together; there are many many variations.
In some cases there certainly was land ownership, and there were conflicts over it. In other cases, people lived in a more communal and egalitarian way, as you are talking about. It runs the entire gamut.
Indigenous peoples lost there land to the government through acts of war, which is a more accurate representation than saying through treaties.
Indians did lose land through warfare with the US. But you are wrong in saying that they did not lose land through treaties; they did. Those were signed in times of peace, and were supposedly meant to keep war from happening again. But the treaties were rescinded again and again, DURING TIMES OF PEACE, and Native American lands were taken away. Go read about the Sioux, or the Cherokee, and tell me they didnt lose land through treaties.
The Sioux cut a deal with the US, were given promises, and were later completely screwed. Not through war, but through broken treaties.
You may not have rights to someone’s farm, but through our economic system you can eat the meat and bread grown on that farm and all the others.
How nice. So they’re allowed to go to 7-11 and buy bacon and wonderbread, and they should feel good about that “right”? They have the right to buy the products that are made on American soil. How is that to be considered some special privelege? I mean, people in Burma have the right to buy American products. Big deal.
The problem with teaching history, at least to kids, is that it’s inflammatory more than it is enlightening.
So why then do we teach them all about that mythological Thanksgiving? Why do we teach them about the American Revolution? Why do we teach young Californians about the Spanish Mission system?
We DO teach history, but we like to tell stories that make us look good at all times.
Maybe we dont have to include all the complicated details. Maybe we could teach kids that, indeed, there were people here BEFORE Columbus arrived, and they had some pretty damn impressive cultures going on. Maybe we could start with that, instead of telling the story as if nobody was here and the land was free for the taking.
mo:
My question to you is this: what do you think needs to happen today? What would make things better, in your opinion?
I agree. I do not hate whites,I am half white.
The Goverment and what its has done and still does to First Nations people, Is a different story.It is Genocide and unacceptable to anyone who seriously belives in the Moral Values the US claims to stand for.The Values it uses as an exscuse to invade other Nations,to sopposedly correct in other peoples countries while still practicing some of those self-same acts on Native People,That our goverment claims to find so unacceptable when other Nation elected Leaders perpatrate on their citizens. It is this speaking out of both sides of their mouth that so anger so many Native People.
ryan,
i wish there were a simple answer to your question. the problems are complex and intertwined. i suppose a good start would be education and awareness of the average american to who we are today and the problems we face that could easily be remedied if enough people demanded it. at less than 2% of the total population of the united states we are rarely heard and if we are heard, easily dismissed. yet still we are seen as such an immense threat to the rest of the population that we must be kept in our place?
there are so many lies and myths repeated over and over about us to this day…we get free money…we get free food…we get free education..we pay no taxes..all of these are myths. rarely are we viewed as contemporary people. ask yourself when is the last time you saw an indigenous person portrayed in the media without feathers, buckskin or horses?
fact is 85% of us live off reservations in urban and suburban areas all over this continent. we work the same jobs you do..want the same things for our children all people want.
anger and frustration is right..we all feel it because no one hears us as is evidenced on this blog. i hear very well what is being said by many..”we won, you lost , you don’t get to tell us what to do.” its the same unspoken attitude that screams when ever an indigenous person dares speak out, whether its about poor health care, education, being used as mascots for sports teams, racism, or the lack of police investigations when one of us is murdered.
we may never hold political power in this country but we will endure long after the conquerers are gone.
thanks for your efforts.
I am cherokee and I just wanted to put my 2 cents in here—#1 americans don’t want the REAL TRUTH about history here in USA to be taught to the children because it goes against everything they want to believe in–#2 they want to believe that Columbus discovered this land (even tho you can’t find something that never was lost to begin with)—and yes my ancestors were here long before the first white man came and not only stole our land,and murdered the women and children but murdered my ancestors by bringing diseases over here that they never had to deal with before the white man came—as far as the land goes—it never was the WHITE MAN’s land till they came over here and stole it either by committing murder or by deceitfully stealing it from my ancestors but even today the white man tends to deny this and what do they do with the land the ancestors loved and respected for soooo long they (the white man) have raped the lands and are still today destroying it a little every day—and lets not forget the real reason the white man stole the land to begin with its called “GOLD” they were greedy and wanted all the precious metals for themselves and thats the REAL reason behind why they got by with all the murders this government got by with—the jews weren’t the first ones that genocide was done to it was my ancestors its just that genocide word wasn’t used than and truth be known genocide to my people are still going on today its just that you never hear about it in the white man’s newspaper cause its just not worthy enough for them to concern theirselves with—–this is my 2cents worth and I will always stick to it—
WohaliAgeyv
mo:
i wish there were a simple answer to your question. the problems are complex and intertwined.
I know…that was a pretty broad question on my part. Things rarely have just one simple answer.
i suppose a good start would be education and awareness of the average american to who we are today and the problems we face that could easily be remedied if enough people demanded it.
I agree with you completely. Most Americans know very little about contemporary Native Americans, at all. The only time they hear or think about them is when someone is talking about casinos, for the most part.
at less than 2% of the total population of the united states we are rarely heard and if we are heard, easily dismissed. yet still we are seen as such an immense threat to the rest of the population that we must be kept in our place?
I dont understand that either. I mean, whats the threat? Honestly, I think that many Americans just want to ignore the whole issue. I think that underlying all of this, people know at some level that some things happened that were not acceptable, humane, or fair. I think that’s why people want to look the other way.
rarely are we viewed as contemporary people.
Yep. Indians are always thought of as these mythical people who wander around with bows and arrows or something. Americans are funny about that. They forget that it’s 2006 for native americans too, not 1700.
ask yourself when is the last time you saw an indigenous person portrayed in the media without feathers, buckskin or horses?
its pretty rare.
anger and frustration is right..we all feel it because no one hears us as is evidenced on this blog.
The level of understanding about any Native American history, let alone contemporary issues, is really low here today. People just dont know…they arent taught about any of that. I was working in archaeology in socal, and all the time people would get all surprised and say, “You mean there were Indians HERE?” No idea. And they also had no idea about the history of the people who ended up on reservations out east.
Basically, Indians have been erased from history, and then they were removed from American society either through forced assimilation or being moved onto reservations. Not cool.
There are some really confusing things going on in California. People here get all bent out of shape about gambling. I dont see the problem; if tribes want to do it, then fine, thats their right. And its not like they’re FORCING people to go there and lose money; people willingly do it.
Internally, however, I know that casinos do present problems, since tribes battle over the money and power. I do know of reservations where there are these huge brand new casinos right across the street from incredibly poor neighborhoods. The revenues arent always divided evenly.
In my opinion, it’s pretty imporant that you keep talking about his, and trying to get people to listen. It’s not always easy, I know that, but you’d be surprised…sometimes people will listen.
WohaliAgeyv:
americans don’t want the REAL TRUTH about history here in USA to be taught to the children because it goes against everything they want to believe in…
Teaching about Native American history definitely creates some problems for the whole heroic American story, now doesnt it? The “real truth” has many sides, and cannot be told by just one person.
they want to believe that Columbus discovered this land…
People who believe that are incredibly uninformed.
and yes my ancestors were here long before the first white man came and not only stole our land,and murdered the women and children but murdered my ancestors by bringing diseases over here that they never had to deal with before the white man came…
Yes, they were here long before any Euros set foot on this soil. And it’s true that Eurpeans committed atrocities, no doubt.
Be careful about falling into the trap of characterizing Native Americans as pure victims in the whole matter; they werent. In some cases, tribes sold each other out, murdered each other, and aligned themselves with Europeans in an attempt to win. It IS NOT some case where one side was purely evil and the other was purely innocent. But there are so many individual cases that it’s hard to generalize.
Just dont forget that Europeans did not bring war to the Americas; it was already well established here way before they arrived, and you know it.
I hear what you’re saying, and can definitely understand your anger. I’m kinda wondering what you think would be a good way to make things better.
There has definitely been a lot of racism directed toward Native Americans…in the distant past all the way up to today. And I know that it pisses you off to no end. I have one suggestion for you though: dont go that route. Drop the whole “white man” argument, because thats the same thing that you dont want being flung at you. I’m saying that because I am probably what you would call a “white man,” and I am certainly not ignorant about whats happened, and what continued to happen. I’m no expert, by any means, but I am also not walking around with blinders on.
There are plenty of people ignoring this, but not everyone is. Dont make enemies of everyone by making big generalizations about what a certain “race” will do.
I agree with you that there are some serious contradictions that need to be dealt with and acknowledged. It’s about time for Americans to get a clue about the colonial past, about the treatment of Native Americans, and about how that has helped shape the way things are NOW.
ryan,
My statements about individual land ownership descend directly from a posting I addressed to mo. I’m fine with others commenting about such postings, but when you do please retain the context of that original posting. I was referring to indigenous people who lost there land to the American (U.S.) government, and that restricts the indigenous people I am taking about to a subset of the indigenous peoples of North America.
That subset never developed a written language, mathematics, or smelted metal. By many definitions, these were stone age cultures. Such cultures had no concept of individual land ownership in any permanent sense. They recognized personal property ownership including their dwelling, but land was held by the tribe, not by individual members. It’s as much of a practical limitation as it is a form of communal living. Without a written language there was no means of recording ownership of land by individuals or transfers of that ownership.
Given that background, a member of the American tribe has usage rights of American lands. Obviously, we can’t make a direct comparison between stone age America and modern America, but within the law you can hunt, fish, and recreate on public lands, which are far more extensive than the lands ever held a given tribe. Our economic system replaces the communal system tribes used, so you access the bounty of the land through that system, and of course you pay for the labor others put into the products. The fact that you can go into a store and purchase food from all over the world is nothing to scoff at. The system allows for maximum specialization which increases productivity and the standard of living for most who participate in it.
There may have been some lands transferred from indigenous people to the government by treaties that were fair and not disputed. In that case the land was not lost by the indigenous people, they sold it.
When I say lands lost the government by war, I’m not talking about such undisputed treaties, but I do include broken treaties. When the government broke a treaty and forced the Indians off the land at the point of a gun or by starvation, I consider that to be an act of war. There is simply no need to go through the roundabout statement about treaties being signed and then in peace time broken, it’s simply another act of war. To say otherwise is to be too kind to the government. Given that explanation, I hope you understand what I mean when I say all the lands lost in war with the American government.
History, like evidence is not all of the same character. In a court of law some evidence is excluded because, while true, it’s prejudicial. That is, it’s emotional content is much higher than the value of it’s factual content. That doesn’t mean courts exclude all evidence, just the prejudicial evidence.
Likewise, the history I was talking about is best described as atrocities. I believe teaching such history to kids does far more harm than good regardless of which side the kids may feel they belong to. I’m not saying never to teach such things, but only to mature minds such as college students who may be the leaders of the future.
Having to explain all this is time consuming, so I’m hoping you can use this information as a map to better understand my other postings.
Mrs. Davis wrote:
“The money they get isn’t in the treaties. If they want sovreignty, they should lose the right to vote as long as they are on the reservation and they should get no federal largesse, including medical care. Let them live on their land as their forefathers did. If they want to live the way we do, they should start doing so and ending the plantation reservation system.”
Well, Mrs. Davis, the best way for us to do that is to actually have our land back. How ’bout you move back to where ever you (if you were not born in North America) or your ancestors came from and we can start with yours? Otherwise, sit down and shut up. By the way, it’s spelled “sovereignty”. Teddy, if you were referring to a breast, the word is “teat”, not “teet”. And Mac, you should learn the difference between “there” and “their”, especially if you’re going to insult someone else’s intelligence as you did with your “stone age culture” remark.
You think Indians ought to make something of themselves, is that what you’re trying to say in your bigoted way? Well, let’s start with decent education. I think everyone agrees that unemployment on the reservations is a big problem. Ever been to a school on the rez? Well, I used to sub there. Being “sub-standard” would be a major improvement. I’ve given the Test of Adult Basic Education to graduates of rez schools who tested out at a third grade level. They were not stupid people, but they were uneducated. The fact that next to no money is spent on Indian education is a big problem though. There are a lot of businesses that could be run on the rez if there was a sufficiently educated population to run them.
There are not all that many people on the rez who want to live in a teepee/hogan/chickee/etc. and hunt and gather. HOWEVER, that doesn’t mean that the people there don’t want to hold on to their traditional ways – and people can hold on to their traditional ways and still live in a house with electricity and running water. The reservations are our way of having that, just as the countries where your ancestors came from are repositories of language, culture and tradition there. Do you think France or Holland or Japan want to abandon their language, culture and tradition and become part of the US? Or even like the US? We’ve sure spent a lot on Japan in the last 50 years, helping them become a world power. Germany too, for that matter. It would be nice if the indigenous people of this country got that kind of money spent on them. I would imagine that Iraq and Afghanistan will be the next recipients of American funds, as they re-build.
And another thing, Mrs. Davis – as far as the money not being in the treaties goes: every single treaty we’ve ever made with the US government has been broken, by the US government. Surely that’s worth something.
mac:
I was referring to indigenous people who lost there land to the American (U.S.) government, and that restricts the indigenous people I am taking about to a subset of the indigenous peoples of North America.
I understand the fact that you were talking about a subset of people from North America. I was asking you which ones, in specific, you are talking about. The Cherokee, The Iroquois, the Sioux, The Pawnee, the Blackfoot, the Chumash, the Kumeyaay, the Pomo, the Navajo. Who? They cannot all be lumped into one big generalization.
That subset never developed a written language, mathematics, or smelted metal. By many definitions, these were stone age cultures. Such cultures had no concept of individual land ownership in any permanent sense.
Ah, I see. Because they were so-called primitve peoples, they could not have understood the concept of ownership, and therefore, the US is not responsible for taking their lands? Weak argument there. I’m sure that formal documents werent really necessary to figure who “owned” what land. This is a line of reasoning that may have worked in the 18th and 19th centuries, but I’m sure not going to buy it now. When colonists rolled up and saw large villages built in particular places, I’m sure they assumed that those people “owned” that land. Are you really saying that since they didnt draw up a deed, they had no entitlement to the lands which they occupied? I hope you’re not saying that…
Without a written language there was no means of recording ownership of land by individuals or transfers of that ownership.
See, this just doesnt work. Written language is not needed in order to understand that a group of people “owns” land. You cant just take away their rights by defining the terms of ownership as you understand them.
By your logic, no humans ever owned land until writing was invented 6,000 or so years ago.
I do understand what you mean when you are talking about the loss of lands via acts of war. That works for me.
Likewise, the history I was talking about is best described as atrocities. I believe teaching such history to kids does far more harm than good regardless of which side the kids may feel they belong to.
I get your point here. How about this: we leave the atrocities for later. But we start teaching kids at a young age a version of history that is more accurate, and includes the histories of Native Americans as well, like the Hopi, the Iroquois, the Sioux of more recent time, and some of the archaeological evidence as well, which dates back 13,000 or so years. Maybe we should start off with that, so that when kids get into college they arent blown away when they are filled in about the existence of those people. Just an idea…
Having to explain all this is time consuming, so I’m hoping you can use this information as a map to better understand my other postings.
Sorry to be taking up your time. Dont respond if it’s too tedious. Let me remind you that I did not take your post out of contexr, I simply asked you to clarify what specific people you were making claims about (which you still have not done). My point was that tribes in North America are varied; ideas about ownership of lands were all across the board. You seem to want to believe that they all believed the same thing, and acted in the same way, and thats just not the case, whether we’re talking about people who lived 1000 years ago, or people who were here during Colonial times.
Seluagiya, good points.
Have you seen those programs where Jay Leno walks out onto the street and asks questions like “what event is being celebrated on independence day?”, and then when all he gets is blank stares Jay adds “the 4th of July”, only to get an answer like “the end of the civil war”. I’m hoping these are plants just to entertain us, but I fear it real and all too common.
It seems indigenes people are asking for recognition of their history by the dominant culture. Given Jay’s experience, I have little faith that will every happen.
One of my neighbors was doing a remolding job for me and I asked him what his next job was and he told me it was for a government building, and that he had gotten the contract as part of a set aside program for Indians. My brain went into total lockup as I never knew this blue eyed man was Indian. Some have asked when was the last time you saw an Indian portrayed on TV without feathers or a horse. Well probably all the time, how would you know? Almost every day the evangelist Kenneth Copeland is on TV and he’s half Indian, and it was he who baptized me in Eagle Mountain lake many years ago. How much Indian blood do you have to have to be Indian? I’ve been told that one of my great great grand parents was Indian or part Indian, but I have no way of verifying that.
Years ago I went to the Crazy Horse monument in South Dakota. Crazy Horse sits on a fiery steed resting his arm across its head with his finger pointing to the east in the direction the invaders came from. Very impressive, but I got a very surprised and then rude reaction from the guide when I asked why this great chief was named after and sat atop an animal reintroduced into the new world by the very invaders he pointed an accusing finger toward. Obviously, there’s plenty of ignorance about the invaders and the good things they brought to this country.
Yes, let’s get rid of the reservations and start enforcing stricter immegration laws- get the hell off of the land that isn’t yours and go back to fucking Europe you ignorant pig.
You live close enough to go see Pine Ridge, go see for yourself what your government has done for those people- shit houses made of little more than plywood, nearly all 40,000 of the inhabitants don’t even have beds to sleep on.
Actually, all these tribes are as I described, so no distinction is needed for my point.
It’s not that they couldn’t understand the concept of land ownership, it’s that they didn’t. Neither did they understand the concept of “zero”, not because they couldn’t understand it, but their culture never developed it. Can you see the difference? Also, I never said the U.S. is not responsible for taking lands. If you are going to criticize in detail, then you need to read in detail and not recast my words.
Such documents were needed in all cultures where there was both individual land ownership and a nomadic way of life. People die and people forget, so there has to be a written record.
So what do you want to talk about, the way it was at the time of Indian treaties or the way people view things now? When you switch context wily nily you are going to find it hard to follow anyone’s comments.
Another context jump. I was talking about individual land ownership and you jumped to group ownership. You need to concentrate on what I actually write if you want to accurately criticizes my comments.
Not on an individual and permanent bases. How do you show other members of the tribe that so and so’s dead father sold your dead father that land so and so is now using unless you have a written language of some kind?
There’s no evidence that any of the tribes in North America had a written language, mathematics, or smelted metal. Without a written language, no culture has developed the concept of individual land ownership, and thus, all these tribes could be lumped together for the simple purpose of showing that when Indians of that time talked about their land they were talking about their tribe’s land, not their personal land. That made it easy for Europeans to acquire vast tracks of land through treaty, as they only had to get the chiefs to sign rather than going to each individual tribe member. I’m not saying that made the treaties legal in any modern sense, but it may have seemed to be legal to the European people of that time.
Spoken like a true racist. And then they wonder why the get it right back.
I don’t live anywhere near Pine Ridge, but I know of it. What keeps people from leaving such a place, is there a wall around it keeping them in? Dose the government keep these people from building better homes or putting beds in them? Do government agents come out and dump garbage all over the place and break out windows? What power on earth could account for American citizens living in such a place for generations?
This is interesting, but Reservations is not an issue for you to solve. It’s Indian land. And contrary to popular belief, no one get paid for being an Indian. I’m not sure what the anti-Indian media campaign is about right now. Just because some lobbyist gets caught skimming money and bribing politicans and bilking some Indian Tribes, that Sovereignity, Reservations, and all Indian Casinos become an issue. The cities I see, have poverty, drugs, alcoholism, crime, gangs, homelessness, people that cannot pay utility bills, poor schools, and corrupt politicans. It’s taken a couple hundred years for the government to mess it up, so it will take time to straighten it out. To be Sovereign is to determine your own destiny, not for someone else to decide for you. Historically, American History is a myth. Treaties, I think they were worded “as long as the grass grows, and as long as the river flows, this is Indian Land”. They just kept changing them. fBickel
mac:
Actually, all these tribes are as I described, so no distinction is needed for my point.
Sorry Mac, but you’re wrong. They cannot all be lumped into one category as you are doing. Each of those tribes that i mentioned is unique in aspects of social organization, political structure, and culture, among other things. You cant go around saying that the Kumeyaay and the Iroquois are identical, for instance. They arent. They have differing ideas of property and territory as well.
It’s not that they couldn’t understand the concept of land ownership, it’s that they didn’t.
They understood the concept. Go read about the Cahokia settlement, or the Chaco Canyon complex, for starters, and get back to me. Territories were defined and defended. Ideas about ownership varied across tribes, but the concept certainly did exist. They didnt need European documents to understand what lands were theirs.
I’m not saying that made the treaties legal in any modern sense, but it may have seemed to be legal to the European people of that time.
I see where you’re going with the whole individual ownership of lands idea…and I get the point you’re making, namely that Europeans had a different conception of ownership, and thats how these lopsided treaties were created. I get your point, but I dont think that the Euros really believed that. I mean, they “traded” a bag of nails for Staton Island. I’m pretty sure they knew they were screwing those Indians.
From what I’ve read, it really doesnt seem like the Europeans were all that concerned with doing things legally. I think they stole those lands outright, and knew it, and tried to hide behind bullshit treaties and agreements.
ryan,
i’m impressed not just by your knowledge but your patience. its the same old arguements of superiority…might makes right..we did it therefore its right. if a person cannot change their minds ever than how can you be sure they have one?
i do appreciate your efforts and you make valid points, but you know well there are some people who for their own reasons must believe the lies to make themselves feel better all the while accusing others of the same. there is no need to make up truth…its there in black and white from the writings of the early invaders. they wrote about the atrocities and in some cases were condemned by their peers for committing them.
but again, no one is talking about the dirty deals being done today to native peoples. in central ny state the oneida nation …one of our haudenasaunee confederacy and one of the oldest true democracies on earth with its own constitution that predates the us constitution (another fact i have mentioned but which was ignored since it did not fit the agenda)..was destroyed by the us government over casino revenues and even involving the NAFTA vote. this is not ancient history this is now. its a case study in corruption at all levels of government. in the process peoples’ homes have been bulldozed with no compensation, families made homeless, elders denied medical care and in certain cases dying for lack of it, yet all people talk about is “we weren’t here when the indians were cheated”. this is only one example of what is going on today in the usa against its indigenous peoples. if you see an injustice and do nothing then you are responsible. maybe thats why so many bury their heads, because to know whats going on is to be responsible. one day they will have to see because its coming for them too.
ryan,
Okay then, I’ll ignore your prior points in you last post as you seem to finally understand the difference between tribal ownership of land and individual ownership of land. This was a key concept that allowed European settlers to basically steal land by treaty, which was then used to justify the use of force to enforce it. No one commenting on this topic seems to be trying to defend how the land was taken from the Indians.
My real point is one of pragmatism. The land is never going to be returned to the Indians. In a case involving the Black Hills of South Dakota the tribe won a supreme court case against the government, but only for money to be paid, not for the return of the land. The tribes refuse to accept the money in hopes of regaining the actual land, which is likely a vain hope. Individuals owe it to themselves and especially to their children to move on with their lives. They don’t have to give up their legal claims or their heritage, they can keep those while sharing in the prosperity of modern America.
mac:
Okay then, I’ll ignore your prior points in you last post as you seem to finally understand the difference between tribal ownership of land and individual ownership of land.
It’s not a matter of me understanding the difference between tribal ownership of land and the idea of individual ownership. I assure you that a have a competent grasp of each of those concepts. What I was trying to figure out was what exactly you were trying to argue by bringing up the distinction between the two.
So, basically, I see where you are taking your argument.
This was a key concept that allowed European settlers to basically steal land by treaty, which was then used to justify the use of force to enforce it. No one commenting on this topic seems to be trying to defend how the land was taken from the Indians.
Well, you’re not going to catch me defending the way that Europeans took land, sorry. I personally do not think they were either as innocent, or as naive as you want to characterize them. I think they knew they were pretty much usurping lands from people in a pretty unfair way, and they invoked all of this technical/legal bullshit in order to make themselves feel better.
Individuals owe it to themselves and especially to their children to move on with their lives.
Try using that line of reasoning with the Christians, Jews, and Muslims regarding their Holy Lands. Ya, just get over it people.
The Black Hills are every bit as sacred to the Sioux as the Holy Land is the Christians and Jews.
They don’t have to give up their legal claims or their heritage, they can keep those while sharing in the prosperity of modern America.
Look, I get your pragmatic points here. I understand that it’s not like we can just reverse the course of history and give all the lands back. We’re all here now, and that’s just not going to happen.
However, I think that it’s fully possible for some reconciliation to be made with many Native American groups. I do. I do not think they all have to “just deal with it” as many people assert. It’s ironic to me that on the one hand you’re telling people to stop wallowing in the past, and on the other you’re telling them to just give up and deal with the fact that some of their most important lands have either already been taken, or are threatened. I think tbey should keep fighting for what they believe in, regardless of the adversity.
So-called modern America is not prosperous for everyone, and anyone who takes a look around realizes that. Some people make it, some dont, and there isnt a guarantee by any means. It seems like you think Native Americans are just sitting around doing nothing, while they could be out working that nine to five job and getting ahead. I call bullshit on that one. I argue that they’re out there working and trying to survive like the rest of us, and it aint always easy.
People go on and on about the poverty and drug addiction problems on reservations, like those places have a monopoly on those vices. Our cities are full of the same social problems, and for some of the very same reasons: substandard education systems, differential federal and state support, lack of jobs, etc.
Did you read the post by the guy who is a substitute teacher on reservations? Well, you should.
How do you, Mac, propose that Native Americans begin sharing in the prosperity of “modern” America?
ryan,
I don’t see where I characterize them as innocent. Certainly they were individuals on both sides who didn’t have anything to do with formulating the treaties. All thy knew was that a treaty had been signed. As I said before “No one [including me] commenting on this topic seems to be trying to defend how the land was taken from the Indians.”
That’s exactly my point from a few posts back. Teach kids too much history and they learn to hate others and relive the conflicts of the past. There are only two ways out of that trap, wars of genocide or forgiveness. Which do you think is best for Indians?
Only because you asked. The first thing Indian people need to do is stop taking the poison liberal apologists like you have been feeding them. That poison is not only responsible for the poverty of Indians it’s also the root cause of the similar problems we see in our cities.
I’m sure you think you’re helping and being compassionate and that makes you feel good. You are even supported by the very people who are already sick from your poison, because it’s addictive just like a drug.
You teach them all about the historical injustices they have suffered at the hands of others knowing that that kind of knowledge produces the hate that keeps the middle east in a state of war.
You say “I think tbey should keep fighting for what they believe in, regardless of the adversity.” That’s right, keep their focus on trying to change the past.
You call working a nine to five job bullshit because there’s no guarantee of success, and in doing so you encourage them not to try. If there’s no jobs, then what do they need an education for? So they stay in poverty and live on handouts from the government.
You tell people that because of things they can’t change they are destine to fail, and that it’s okay to fail because it someone else’s fault. You have taught them to hate the long dead and to hold the living of that race responsible. You have given these people an excuse to fail and in so doing you have insured their failure.
The answer is as I have already laid out in detail. Practice the wisdom of forgiveness and take responsibility for your own life. No able bodied person of sound mind is in a situation that they can start working their way out of. Maybe you won’t make it, but you can give your kids a boost so they will make it.
Bill Crosby is giving Blacks the same basic message and most hate him for it. I can only imagine the messages I’m going to receive. Well bring it on, but watch your mouth as kids may be reading this.
Mac,
First of all, I’m going to take a deep breath before responding to you. Secong, in all honesty I think that you want to improve the situation, and I do think that your intentions are good. I will keep that in mind, especially considering your “liberal apologist” remark, which to me comes right out of the good old stereotypical insult box.
As I said before “No one [including me] commenting on this topic seems to be trying to defend how the land was taken from the Indians.”
Good.
There are only two ways out of that trap, wars of genocide or forgiveness. Which do you think is best for Indians?
Well, since you asked. I think it’s about time that they are taught that their history is as important and relevant as the history of the United States. In fact, I think it’s important they their history be considered an important part of the formation of the United States, since that is most certainly the case (consider, for instance, the ideas of democracy that we derived from them).
I do not think that cultural war is the answer by any means. I think that it’s time that they consider themselves on equal grounds with the rest of us, and start demanding equal treatment. I also think it’s time for us Americans to place that importance upon them, and also demand for equality toward them as well. It takes all of us to end the conflict here.
I do not think that running around blaming white people will do anything, especially since thats just the same damn thing all over again. I do think that gaining an understanding of what has happened, AND CONTINUES TO HAPPEN, is key to their empowerment.
By your line of reasoning, during the 1960s African American people should have just sucked it up and accepted the fact that they were not treated the same as whites. They should have just forgiven everyone for treating them like animals, and went to work regardless. Bullshit. They deserved to acknowledge what had happened to their people in the past, and they deserved fair and equal treatment, since they were citizens of the United States and lived under our Bill of Rights.
Native Americans, too, deserve respect, equality, and recognition.
I think that hate will get them nowhere, period. Hate isnt what I’m calling for, by any means. I think it’s time we all realize what happened, and we deal with it on equal grounds.
The first thing Indian people need to do is stop taking the poison liberal apologists like you have been feeding them. That poison is not only responsible for the poverty of Indians it’s also the root cause of the similar problems we see in our cities.
Ok, so I’m an apologist. I guess that’s because I read and study history and realize that there is alot more to it than what is promulgated by the National Government, and out school systems. I am an apologist because when I read about the decimation of people like the California Indians, and then realize that their current situation might have been affected by that, I want to do what I can to rectify that problem. Fine. Call me an apologist for not buying into the usual rhetoric of American history, which purports freedom, liberty, and justice, while at the same time the very people who supposedly believe in those values hold human beings slaves, and murder others to take their lands. I realize that out histories have a bias, and a point of view. I realize that Native American viewpoints are in no way a part of our historical narrative, and in fact, that shapes public perception of today’s world. Indeed, if people can come on here and write that they think Indians should just go back to hunting and gathering, it’s apparent that there is an incredible lack of understanding going on.
I think that Native American history is every bit as important as any story that we tell about George Washinton, Thomas Jefferson, or good old Abe Lincoln. Thats what I think.
I think their people were screwed, and that they are still being screwed today in many cases. I do not think they need to sit by an allow that to happen, and I do not think they need to accept their lot in life. I think they deserve all the rights and priveleges that any American gets, and they should demand it. Along with that, they should be supported by other Americans.
For me, and understanding, and acknowledgment of the past is key to understanding today. As the saying goes, “He who contols the present controls the past.” Well, it’s time that we rewrite our sacred little histories just a bit, and include our brothers and sisters who have roots on this continent which date back about 12,500 years before any of us got here. They deserve that.
I’m sure you think you’re helping and being compassionate and that makes you feel good.
Ya, Mac, all I care about is making my fucking self feel good. What a goddamn asshole comment that was. You’re right, I just picked up this interest because I was feeling sorry for myself, and just needed something to make me feel better. It wasnt because I was working as an archaeologist and came across issues that struck me as terribly wrong. It wasnt because I was seeing things that are still happening that I feel are complete bullshit, and that I feel more people need to know about. It wasnt because I started studying history and learned about past events that nobody ever told me about; events that I felt had been omitted on purpose and hidden from public view. It wasnt because I have become friends with strong willed, and exceptional, Native American people who have clued me into what they think about life, who told me about their experiences. Ya Mac, this is all just bullshit, and I just want to make myself feel good.
Indeed, you pissed me off with that one. And I tend to have a lot of patience, pal.
You teach them all about the historical injustices they have suffered at the hands of others knowing that that kind of knowledge produces the hate that keeps the middle east in a state of war.
If you read what I wrote, you might realize that I do not, ever, preach hate. I dont. I do think that people have a right, and a duty, to understand the past, and to try to read through the political rhetoric of the present. History is by no means black and white, and is not, ever, a case of good vs. evil. Usually, it’s very complicated. The case with Native Americans is no different, and if you read all of what I wrote above, you might realize that I understand that.
You say “I think tbey should keep fighting for what they believe in, regardless of the adversity.” That’s right, keep their focus on trying to change the past.
I think of it in the same sense that I would civil rights, etc. I think they deserve equal respect, both today and in historic terms. The past cannot be changed, but indeed it can be brought into the light, and understood in more accurate terms. i think that Native Americans should continue to fight for their lands, which are still threatened today, and they should continue to fight for recognition and respect, which they deserve. I am not saying that they should fight against white people at all costs, or try to overthrow the United States. I think they should fight for an equal footing in this culture.
Practice the wisdom of forgiveness and take responsibility for your own life. No able bodied person of sound mind is in a situation that they can start working their way out of. Maybe you won’t make it, but you can give your kids a boost so they will make it.
I agree. Understand what went down, and understand that your history, and culture, is both valid and respectable. Forgive the people who committed crimes, and do not blame others by association. Along with that, demand equality, as it is deserved, today. Do not forgoe your rights, or your freedoms. Be forgiving, yet firm. Take responsiblity for your own life, expect others to do the same.
I can only imagine the messages I’m going to receive. Well bring it on, but watch your mouth as kids may be reading this.
Here’s the message: Ultimately, I might disagree with you on many points, but I do think that you have good intentions. I respect you for encouraging forgiveness, completely. I can only hope that you read what I write, and that you try to understand what I am saying, and try to understand my point of view. That is all that I can ask. These are things that are important to me, and this subject is something that I plan to continue to work on in life. I feel that I have a certain obligation, in a sense, because of some things that I have seen, and some people that I have met.
ryan,
Knowledge is power, but as has two sides. Knowledge that a person descends from a great people who met and overcame many challenges gives the learner confidence that they can do the same as well as sets the expectation that they will succeed. Knowledge of how a person’s people have be defeated, ticked and cheated by others creates hate and a sense of victimhood and disperse. When teaching immature individuals it’s difficult to avoid the negative effects of that knowledge. Just like “adult” content, there are certain things that immature individuals should not be exposed to.
I agree as long as the equal treatment includes equal responsibilities for one’s own life and situation in life. We have see on this topic some posters complaining about the inadequate housing the Federal government provides them. Well, equal treatment means no government housing just because of your race. If there are extenuating circumstances, then the normal welfare rules should apply. All too often when people ask for equal treatment they want just the goods, but don’t want to do the work.
You are missing a fundamental difference and that’s why you should be careful when recasting my comments or line of reasoning. The discrimination Blacks faced was encoded in the law of several states. That fight had to be won for the sake of ALL minorities, not just Blacks. If there is still discrimination against Indians written into the law, then bring it out into the open and the vast majority of Americans will work to change that law. The only exception is for “white men” who are not protected by anti-discrimination laws unless they claim to be gay or of a religious minority. Otherwise, they are the new whipping boys and are paying a price for the sins of the long dead. Obviously when asking for “equal treatment” you want to be excluded from that group.
I assume you are talking about the long dead. If someone in the U.S. is currently holding slaves or murdering people you need to report those crimes to the proper authorities. If the authorities won’t act, go to the press with the facts. Not making a clear distinction between the crimes of the long dead and the living causes lots of problems. If you can’t teach that history in proper context you are doing far more harm than good.
Agreed, but there’s just as much a lack of understanding on the part of those who write that whites should get off Indian land and go back to Europe.
I hope you are not talking about financial support of someone just because of their race.
My point about teaching history is clear. As for the date, scientific discovers keep changing it. The recent find of a genetic marker shows that the tribes of North America descended from peoples in what’s now northern China. However, evidence shows that the tribes in South America descended from Polynesian people and were in South America thousands of years before people from China arrived in North America. That may explain why the tribes of South American developed a written language, mathematics and smelted metal, while those in North America didn’t.
The problem with liberals is that they are motivated by emotions rather than by wisdom. Sometimes the two point in the same direction, but often the emotional response is opposite of the wise response. Parents love their kids, but often have to go against their emotions to do the things that are in the best interest of their kids. Such wisdom is sometimes described as tough love. You may feel bad while practicing tough love, but you know in your mind that it’s the wise course in the long run. I believe you are a compassionate person, but like many liberals, you lack wisdom.
It was my intent to exercise your emotional response in the hope that when it burned itself out you could think more clearly about what your are doing to your Indian friends. Do you love them enough to tell them the truth at the risk of loosing their friendship?
I have read your messages completely. I also believe your intentions are good, and you are taking a more holistic approach, which will work if you are careful to insure individuals are never let off the hook for being responsible for their own lives; in success or in failure. You are right that forgiveness is the key, not only in this matter but in all human conflicts. I stand with you in those things.
However, there are lots of Indian people who are in dire need of rescue from the victimhood they wallow in, and what they need most is a shocking message of tough love. As a conservative I support government help for disadvantaged individuals of all races who are working to help themselves. Education that works for kids who don’t like school, scholarships for kids that what to go to college, matching wages for the working poor (currently called earned income) even if they don’t have kids. We don’t owe people success, but we do owe them opportunity and to then hold them accountable for what they do with that opportunity.
Peace!
WHITE MAN SPEAKS WITH FORK TONGUE
I have read alot of why we don’t try to better our selves, get jobs, etc. Please for one moment hear me out..How would you like to wake up one morning to find you are no longer a “Legal” white person, black person or asian? Happens to us all the time. The President loves to get pen happy and wipe out a whole tribe. Can you imagion being a “Legal” ethnic? I don’t go around asking you how much white you are or how much english etc. We are!!…As far as jobs with the exception of the east coast alot of reservations are well off the main drag so to speak..up to several hours..border towns sell cars easy to NDNs buy here pay here, at a well marked up price and what are these cars? The large V8 gas guzzlers….now think of the price of gas! Then as an added bonus I would like you to think of being in Harlem or China town…when you are a white person…now think of trying to get work there and if you succeed..think about working in that enviornment!
Can you imagion living on your piece of ground for 20 yrs farming it ..then all of a sudden, the government wants that piece of property because it has coal beneath the ground, and in its place the government will move you to another piece of property only draw back is it was a nuclear testing site. Or what would you do if the government mined behind your house and contaminated your wells? Well, it happened and the government did nothing about it, it is alright if your a Indian and have no water for a whole tribe. This is the recent past…not ancient. I will respectfully ask that you check REAL news and history not your fairy tale stuff.
I want you to live under these conditions…this is just one state..look at the others I can give you things from SD, California on down the line. Yeah, NDN’s want to be in your world alright.
‘I’m embarrassed for my state’
By BRODIE FARQUHAR
Star-Tribune correspondent Monday, February 06, 2006
LANDER — Discrimination against American Indians is alive and well in Wyoming, says the superintendent of Fremont County School District 14.
Michelle Hoffman told state lawmakers last week that as students from the Wyoming Indian district have traveled around the state in activities, they have encountered behavior ranging from ignorant, insensitive actions by students at other schools to outright, in-your-face racism.
“It has to stop,” Hoffman told the Select Committee on Tribal Relations. “I’m embarrassed for my state.”
Hoffman’s comments unleashed a series of complaints and painful stories from the audience
Wind River Indian Reservation resident Sandra C’Bearing told the legislators that her son, Al, was attending Chadron State University in Nebraska on a basketball scholarship. When he learned that Chadron’s men’s basketball team would travel to Laramie to play the University of Wyoming Cowboys, he obtained several tickets to the game and sent them to his mother.
Yet when the C’Bearing family presented their tickets at the basketball arena, they were challenged by UW staff, questioned where they got the tickets and forced to wait until the tickets’ authenticity could be verified, she said.
“We missed the warm-up period when I wanted to take photos of my son,” C’Bearing said.
Once the tickets were verified, the C’Bearing family was admitted, and they took their seats behind the media tables at courtside. Again, they were challenged by UW staff and told they couldn’t sit there, she said. When the ticket stubs proved those were indeed their seats, the UW staffer backed off.
That wasn’t the end of it, she said. Throughout the game, there were rude comments about her son’s long hair, war whoops from the stands and a number of UW students aiming “arrows” at her son in imitation of someone using a bow and arrow.
In a statement released by the UW Media Relations Office, Athletic Director Gary Barta said: “The Chadron State game was in early November, and this is the first time UW was aware of concerns about inappropriate behavior related to that game. We want to make attendance at Cowboy basketball games an enjoyable experience for everyone who attends and deeply regret it when the experience is not satisfactory.
“More importantly, UW will not tolerate discriminatory behavior on our campus. We will contact the family and thoroughly review their concerns to determine whether a response by the university should be undertaken.”
Allison Sage, Northern Arapaho Tribe liaison to the governor’s office, said that when he took a Wyoming history course at UW, he studied from three required books. Among all those pages of information, he said, was a page and a half about Indians, and that mostly consisted of stereotyped comments about savages.
“History can hurt,” said Kassel Weeks, a member of the Eastern Shoshone Business Council, especially when he learned how his people have been treated over the years.
Several students from a government class at Wyoming Indian School said they were surprised at how fundamentally ignorant their white friends were about the Wind River reservation and the tribes, even when they live right next door in Riverton or Lander.
“I think the only solution is through education” of students and teachers alike throughout the state, Hoffman said.
She said she had invited teachers from a couple of schools where there were discriminatory incidents to come to Wyoming Indian School for a crash course in Indian culture and history. The next time her students visit those schools, she hopes they’ll receive a better reception, because those teachers will have shared what they learned.
“It falls on us to provide the training, when all teachers should have this training,” Hoffman said.
She’s looking north, toward Montana, for inspiration of what could happen someday in Wyoming. Hoffman praised Montana’s Indian Education for All, a program that educates all Montana school children about American Indian history and culture.
The Montana program received $3.4 million from the Legislature last year to develop a statewide curriculum that can be woven into the fabric of K-12 public education, recognizing the 12 tribes that call Montana home.
The Montana Office of Public Instruction, led by Superintendent Linda McCullough, has a plan for curriculum development and teacher training. In a Friday telephone interview, McCullough said the program is not simply to educate Indian students about their cultures and histories, but to educate the entire state.
On the Net
* For more information about Wyoming Indian Schools, go to {M7http://www.fremont14.k12.wy.us/.
* For more information about Montana’s Indian Education For All program, go to {M7www.opi.mt.gov/IndianEd.
Brodie Farquhar is a freelance writer based in Lander. He can be reached at brodiefarquhar@hotmail.com
Here’s some more good reading for you..one of your ezines, not ndn..
North American Reservation – Reap and Sow
By Nancy Levant
February 7, 2006
American Chronicle
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=5564
Lyn
That might actually be a good thing if your particular ethnic group has been derided by the dominate culture for wallowing in self-pity. How would you like to wake up one morning to find you no longer had any excuse to fail; that you are primarily responsible for your own status in life? It can be scary, but it’s also empowering because now you have control of your status in life.
Control is always paired with responsibility. It’s a fundamental fact of life. You can’t have control until you take responsibility. It sounds so simple, yet it’s profound life changing wisdom from ancient times. I’m not talking about the physically or mentally handicapped. Such people are not responsible for their condition, and because they can’t take responsibility, they can’t take control either, not of the disability. Yet to whatever degree they take responsibility they also gain control.
Control and responsibility can never be separated. You can’t take control of a car until you take responsibility for what happens while you are in control of the car. Some people think they can separate the two only to find out that society holds them responsible whether they like it or not.
It’s the same for tribes as it is for people. If a tribe doesn’t take responsibility for it’s reputation it has no control of it either. As you see from the Wyoming incident you cite, society holds individuals who self-identify themselves as members of a dysfunctional tribe in low esteem such that even well educated people don’t feel members of such a tribe belong at their sporting event. Yes it’s discrimination, but the way to change it is for the tribe to take responsibility for it’s own reputation. Anyone who wants to be known as a tribe member needs to meet some expectations set by the tribe. Otherwise, the group puts pressure on them to shape-up or ship-out.
If you don’t want the bad reputation of a dysfunctional tribe destroying your own reputation, stop associating with that tribe. Stop self-identifying yourself as a member through your dress, your haircut, your words, and most importunely, your attitude.
I don’t mean any disrespect and I know that people start out in different places in this life. Some with many advantages and some with many disadvantages. Those initial advantages and disadvantages are usually inherited from parents and grand parents. It’s only natural for parents to give their children as much a boost in getting started in life as they can. Some families have been very successful in doing that for generations, so their children start out with the best education, social status, business contacts, and money. What they don’t have is an excuse to fail and they know it. Other people start out with a whole list of excuses why they can’t succeed and little else. What I’m trying to tell you is that you can reject those excuses.
Obviously, it depends on how old a person is as to what opportunities they have. If a person is still in school, work on graduating. With a high school diploma they can join the military to learn a trade and gain job experience. Save their pay and get out after four years and find a job in an economically viable location.
If the military is not an option, learn how to sell stuff on eBay. Anything handmade that legitimately caries the name of an Indian tribe will attract bids from liberals who want to feel good about themselves. Exploit your advantages even if others think they are disadvantages; it’s the American way.
Here’s just one quick idea. There’s a popular TV show called Survivor, and if you have seen it you know few people can make fire with just what’s available around them, yet it can be done. Do a little research and make a Genuine Lakota (or whatever tribe) fire starting kit with instructions and sell them on eBay. Post your best sob story and liberals will bid up the price well beyond any real value.
More legitimately, a tribe could design outdoor clothing, have it manufactured in Chine for cheap, and sell it as Genuine Lakota designed, tested and approved footwear, coats, pants, all the stuff hunters need. Use the Indian hunting mystic as a marketing advantage no other group can claim.
Dang, I’m starting to wish I were Indian, I could make lots more money living right on the reservatin.
Don’t you mean Control is always paired with Greed never with responsibility, it’s too unrealistic & expensive to re-write the history books? Control & responsibility can be separated, so long as the whites prosper but don’t share this with any of your minorities “FRIENDS”. I got your joke, Ha Ha…
Control and responsibility come as a pair in all human endeavors, not just economics. What’s written about the long dead doesn’t change that. The joke is that I’ve told one of the secrets to success in all areas of life and some would rather wallow in their victimhood.
Mac
You stated:
How would you like to wake up one morning to find you no longer had any excuse to fail; that you are primarily responsible for your own status in life? It can be scary, but it’s also empowering because now you have control of your status in life.
Sorry to tell you, I have moved on I don’t live on the rez. I have a decent job, make decent money. That is why I try to help make the world a better place for future generations, so we don’t lose touch with our people, our culture, and traditions. I don’t like your world much, I don’t like your thought patterns, I don’t like the way you treat other people. But I live here. And your thoughts on status in life is nothing to me. They are your ideas of life not mine.
You stated
If you don’t want the bad reputation of a dysfunctional tribe destroying your own reputation, stop associating with that tribe. Stop self-identifying yourself as a member through your dress, your haircut, your words, and most importunely, your attitude.
That is what makes us a people. Disassociating is not something you will likely see. We are proud of who we once were and who we are. As far as dress and hair cuts..there you go again..to most of us that sort of thing is part of OUR RELIGION. sounds like assimilation to me. Sounds like a rehash of the past. I guess you want to send us back to schools like “Carlisle. To teach us how to assimilate into your world. What you see as far as the alchololism and drugs..is because our way of life had been taken, our culture, our beliefs. What you offer in return goes against what we are, Our beliefs have always been for the “People” You know the saying “it takes a village to raise a child.” You offer greed and and number one. Most of these people with addictions are so lost. We don’t want to be like you, we have seen what you have done to the land and all we hold sacred, why would we want to remove ourselves to live in your world when most don’t understand it or the things you do.
You stated:
Obviously, it depends on how old a person is as to what opportunities they have. If a person is still in school, work on graduating. With a high school diploma they can join the military to learn a trade and gain job experience. Save their pay and get out after four years and find a job in an economically viable location.
I think you ought to check military records, most of our people do join the military. Frankly we don’t want to live away from our people, our religion, and our culture. We, just like your Amish prefer to keep our religion and way of life. And yes, they make a living off the land, but they have gotten to choose the land they live on and they choose fertile and workable land. They group together just like a reservation. They too have shunned your ways and don’t understand your greed and thinking processes. They live with the village concept. As far as ground and living off it,seems the few who make a living off the land, get moved for the wealth of what under their ground. To a place left unusable and unexceptable for human habitation. like a nuclear testing site. Or a place with contaminated wells, but not to worry if you have good water, the government will change that for you too.
You stated:
If the military is not an option, learn how to sell stuff on eBay. Anything handmade that legitimately caries the name of an Indian tribe will attract bids from liberals who want to feel good about themselves. Exploit your advantages even if others think they are disadvantages; it’s the American way.
Ebay that is you are assuming they have computers and electric. Do you know right now there are elders freezing to death on Pineridge? The things you talk about sound great assuming you can get backing or have money to make money..alot of these people don’t have food or heat. Alot will not allow their children to starve while taking a risk with the little money they have. .a friend of mine who works for the school district on a Navajo reservation makes excellent money. Doesn’t have electric at home.The tribe can’t afford to have the wires strung to where they are. Move you say, it is what empowers him as who he is, to move away would take him away from all that he holds dear and precious in life. His religion, his people, his language, his family.
Most of us that do live away, are the ones you are butting heads with here and most have moved away and don’t like it. We want to retain our culture and way of life, religion and our language, If you don’t speak your language, you lose it and to lose a language is the death of a people. But that isn’t something you would care or even worry about since most people in the world speak english.
You stated:
More legitimately, a tribe could design outdoor clothing, have it manufactured in Chine for cheap, and sell it as Genuine Lakota designed, tested and approved footwear, coats, pants, all the stuff hunters need. Use the Indian hunting mystic as a marketing advantage no other group can claim.
Did you know that to sell anything as Genuine “Indian” anything. requires you as a person to have personally made it and you must have your name and roll number attached to each item. Thats the law. There goes your BIG MONEY MAKER. Any other ideas you would like to give us that requires us to break the law and be imprisioned for? If you are going to give big money making ideas I suggest you read the laws, seems we have been saddled with most of yours and ones just for us.
http://thorpe.ou.edu/cohen.html
Deceit, is not an option for most either,to decieve someone is not only dishonoring the person you are lying to, but most of all it is dishonoring yourself. Why do you think most Asians stay in there own little corner of your world? They have cultural ethics and morals that collide with your world. The sad fact is the ones you hear about are the ones preying on those very morals, who have gotten the greed fever.
You stated:
I don’t mean any disrespect and I know that people start out in different places in this life. Some with many advantages and some with many disadvantages. Those initial advantages and disadvantages are usually inherited from parents and grand parents. It’s only natural for parents to give their children as much a boost in getting started in life as they can. Some families have been very successful in doing that for generations, so their children start out with the best education, social status, business contacts, and money. What they don’t have is an excuse to fail and they know it. Other people start out with a whole list of excuses why they can’t succeed and little else. What I’m trying to tell you is that you can reject those excuses.
And what I am trying to say to you is we aren’t out for social status…money…we are out for being treated like humans. If a man can feed his family teach OUR values to his children, to teach them to honor the mother, and all living things. To feed his family and be able to share with those less fortunate, like the elders and handicapped. To us that is “big social status” Stop trying to make people carbon copies of your values.
I don’t look at every white person and assume you all are a Ted Bundy or a John Wayne Gacy, but most of your people do, you see a couple drunks so we all are. To most people we are a bunch of dirty heathens..sorry to tell you, but our people taught yours the concept of daily bathing. I don’t look at all white people and assume they are all rich and I don’t look at blacks and think drugs and robbery or hispanics as fertile rabbits. Lets take a little responsibility here..alot of white people are very prejudice. Since they are the ones in power, as I see few blacks and other ethnics in govt. their opinion far reaches that of any other ethnic group, along with the laws.
It also seems as if most of you think we all just sit and wallow in poverty, and wait for hand outs or don’t take any responsibility for the drug and alcholol problems on the reservations, the poor conditions we live with and crime in our communities. I won’t even touch that subject..might I suggest if you really think that then you might want to read some of our newspapers.
http://www.indiancountry.com/
http://www.indianz.com/
Those are all tribes…news. Some tribes have there own online newspapers.
It also seem to me that there are so many great ways to fix the problem, with so little knowledge of what and who we are, and even less knowledge of what is important to us as a people. Typical European, your values have to be the same as mine and your religion requires you to attend a church and not show any religion except on Sunday. Out there an alchololic is sick and gets catered to..along with most additions. When it is my people it is a choice. Love double standards. You want to save yourself tax dollars look into inmate lawsuits, and the pay for your law makers. And for most of you I pay taxes, too. Just the same as you. Personally, I would rather have my tax money go to people to see that they have food, clothing and a desent place to live than to give money to a bunch of criminals to be treated like a “human” and politicians.
Many people have said “why bother with this sort of thing, they don’t think like us” and I am beginning to see that, that is why the world is in the state it is in now. Everyone is out for number one. Well, when you have made your billions and finally take the time to look at what you have done to the world and the enviornment. When you have paved all the trees away and killed off all the animals for your way of life, See that the world is next to unlivable..what will your millions do for you? How will you feel when you wake up on day and find your children grown and you didn’t have the time to see it and their values aren’t the same as yours, because the babysitter raised them? When you sit down and stuff yourself with expensive foods and down the street there is a child or an old person cold and hungry, it must make you sleep real good. That is why I don’t want your values..that is why I don’t like living in your world.
“When we Indians kill meat, we eat it all up. When we dig roots, we make little holes. When we build houses, we make little holes. When we burn grass for grasshoppers, we don’t ruin things. We shake down acorns and pine nuts. We don’t chop down the trees. We only use dead wood. But the white people plow up the ground, pull down the trees, kill everything. … the White people pay no attention. …How can the spirit of the earth like the White man? … everywhere the White man has touched it, it is sore.”
~Wintu Woman, 19th Century
Out of the Indian approach to life there came a great freedom, an intense and absorbing respect for life, enriching faith in a Supreme Power, and principles of truth, honesty, generosity, equity, and brotherhood as a guide to mundane relations.
~Luther Standing Bear Oglala Sioux 1868-1937
“No individual or group can block another individual’s path or change it against what fits his nature and his purpose. It might be done for a time, but in the end it won’t work out.”
–Rolling Thunder, CHEROKEE
“If you have one hundred people who live
together, and if each one cares for the rest,
there is One Mind.”
–Shining Arrows, CROW
“Our Spiritual belief is that we were
created as part of the land – so our
identity, our names, and our songs are all
tied to the land.”
-Chief Roderick Robinson, NISGA’A
I can give you quotes from now till forever, but it doesn’t mean that you will get it. Some questions for you…if everything your culture provides for a person religion, ethics and the wonderment of being a me me person, why do we have so many wannabes…why do people go as far as faking to be one of us. Why do they steal our religion and and philosiphies. Must be something lacking in the way your world has evolved.
lyn
I have replied to your post..but seems that I put too many urls in there for it to be posted immediately.
You assume you know something about me because of the advice I have given. I gave that advice only because of all the whining on this topic about how hard life is for Indians. Indians aren’t the only people who choose to live in poverty for religious reasons, but those other groups don’t whine about how bad they have it.
Well I’ve been deceived then by all those posting about how hard life is on the reservation as if that’s where they lived.
And how does your job do that? By making more money than you need to live on I bet. I give a substantial amount of my income away to help others, but you think that my making money is all about greed. See how you have judged me without knowing anything about me. All I was trying to do was to help those who complained about bad living conditions, help themselves.
It’s the same law for all, not just Indians. You can’t misrepresent a product. Nevertheless, a tribe can design a product, test that product, and put it’s stamp of approval on it. Then sell it as designed tested and approved by the xxxx tribe. Tribes can register trademarks just like any other group and use that trade mark to identify their products in the market place, and some tribes do just that.
Anyway, if this is really all about your religion, then I won’t bother you any more. I’ll just assume every poor Indian I see is practicing their religion and it’s their 1st amendment right to live in poverty.
You stated:
You assume you know something about me because of the advice I have given. I gave that advice only because of all the whining on this topic about how hard life is for Indians. Indians aren’t the only people who choose to live in poverty for religious reasons, but those other groups don’t whine about how bad they have it.
I said “most” I am sorry you took it personally.The kind of poverty you speak of isn’t poverty to most of us…not having the means to feed or warm our family’s is poverty. NOT money. That is what your people have done. No land, no animals very little farming on the kind of land we were given. Your culture has made it so we are dependant on money. We have no idea how far “we” as a people would have come. So I can’t say what we would be doing in lieu of what we are now. And yes, other groups have, do and continue to do so..but you don’t see us on TV saying “the white oppession..substandard schools for ethnic people..” Maybe that is our problem..we haven’t said it loud and long enough, so that all those listening have become deaf to our words.
You stated:
Well I’ve been deceived then by all those posting about how hard life is on the reservation as if that’s where they lived.
I didn’t say ALL, learn to read please..I specifically made it most, in fact went through my whole post to make sure it didn’t sound as if I personally know it to be a fact. Most of the people have lived there, some live there and many have gone back after being out here. And even if we are off reservation, we still have family there and know its hardships. What you think because we leave we don’t continue to talk to family and friends we divorce our whole nation?
You stated:
And how does your job do that? By making more money than you need to live on I bet. I give a substantial amount of my income away to help others, but you think that my making money is all about greed. See how you have judged me without knowing anything about me. All I was trying to do was to help those who complained about bad living conditions, help themselves.
I work with the abused…and it doesn’t come with an upscale salary. no, I live paycheck to paycheck..I live in a tiny apt…and in the winter I challenge co workers to see who can buy more winter gift packages for under priviledged kids. I drive a 10 year old beat up car with 226,000 miles on it. My dinner was 2 bean burritos. I guess. I am really really living fat off the hog.
You stated:
Anyway, if this is really all about your religion, then I won’t bother you any more. I’ll just assume every poor Indian I see is practicing their religion and it’s their 1st amendment right to live in poverty.
You are the one who wanted us to get rid of hair cuts and dress, remember. I was just informing you that is part of our religion,& who we are. It should have nothing to do with feeding our families. And once again main issues are stuffed in the background.
I am really sorry you don’t like to have your words given back to you. Your anger tells me I have struck a truth..
Lyn
You see that’s what I’m talking about. You blame my people without knowing a thing about who I am. I had nothing to do with your people’s demise, nor did my ancestors going back thousands of years. Maybe I should blame your people for all the deaths caused by tobacco, which they introduced Europeans to. I simply won’t take the blame for the demise of your people nor will most people living today. It simply was the inevitable fate of a static culture, or do you really think the rest of the world would be exploring space while this entire continent remained untouched?
For thousands of years the rest of the world has used various forms of money to facilitate trade. If you want something you can’t grow or can’t make yourself, then you have to trade something for it, something the other party wants. All money does is make it easier to trade, yet somehow in your thinking you have made it into something bad. The fact is you need money and Indians can make it without leaving the reservation if they will just open their eyes to the possibilities.
As we live we learn and as we learn it changes how we live. At least that’s the way it works in most of the world where people strive to improve their own lives, their families lives and the lives of the community.
Of course I know that not ALL Indians think as you do, some are my neighbors and they are fully engaged in the modern world and in saving lives while improving their own.
But no other group that claims to live a simple life for religious reasons as a matter of conscience then whines about living the life they chose.
When Indians whine about living a simple life, yet claim it’s their religion to live a simple life, it just shows that religion is being used as an excuse. That’s been proven time and time again when a casino is built and tribes have money, the first thing that goes is any pretense of wanting to live a simple life. Up go the fancy homes with RVs and sports cars parked in front of their triple door garage.
And I didn’t say ALL either as in everyone. I qualified it saying “all those posting about how hard life is on the reservation as if that’s where they lived.” So it’s only those who posted about how hard life is on the reservation as if that’s where they lived. My point was that money could be made on Ebay and I’m writing this to people on this blog, not people who don’t have electricity where they live. Your excuse as to why Indians can’t sell on Ebay was because they don’t have electricity or computers. Of course, you or other’s like you who do have computers could help folks back on the reservation sell their goods at top price on Ebay. Then again, if it’s not a lack of electricity or computers, or religion, it will be some other excuse. Until there’s a change in attitude, there can be no change in a person’s life. I know that’s not a message many want to hear, but it’s the truth. Stop blaming the long dead for problems today, take responsibly and gain control. I know, of course, that many would rather stay members of the wallow wallow wallow tribe.
You know Mac, not all of us are crafters. WOW an Indian who doesn’t string together beads what a concept. Also alot of items take a long time they can’t be mass produced. Quilling goes an inch an hour.The ones who do, already sell their items to people who resell them marked up 3 times or at powwows. Not everyone who can do crafts have the money to make crafts.
A Casino doesn’t mean money, either there are alot that don’t make enough to sill over into the communities. However it does pay workers. I was in Salamanca,Akwasanee,Kanawakee and Six Nations this summer, funny I didn’t see any mansions or high living for that matter.
In the things I have said isn’t long dead, the removal to a nuclear testing site was just several years ago, so was the well cantaminations. In my Feb 9th there was barely anything more than 5 years ago.
Try visiting Pineridge, or Rosebud where elders are feezing to death, and so are infants. Right Now.
I haven’ seen any whining here, I have however, seen misinformed people being told the truth.
You are one of those people who has to be right and smarter than the rest. And if people reply to what you have said, and it makes you look misinformed. You have to twist peoples words to suit you. I pity your wife.
I haven’t the patience to play your silly game.
You can’t understand something you don’t know about.
And yes, you people is a collective, if your ancestors didn’t start here…
Listen or your tongue will keep you deaf.
~Native American Proverb
“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. The bamboozle has captured us. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”–Carl Sagan
I am finished with your silly game.
good for you lyn. this guy loves the sound of his own voice..or in this case print. any point we make that he can’t argue, he simply ignores. i stopped responding to him long ago for that very reason. this type of ignorance is self inflicted and sadly, rarely will such a person change. at any rate life goes on and i too am grateful i don’t have to live with him. skennen ko wah lyn.
Lyn,
When I suggested Indians could make things and sell them on Ebay you responded with this statement on Feb 9th:
When I pressed the point about people with computers helping those on the reservation sell their goods on Ebay you responded with this statement on Feb 10th:
So what was the deal about my idea getting people in trouble with the law when you obviously knew Indians were already making goods for sale? In checking the law you cited, it was enacted to prevent non-Indians from exploiting Indian people by selling things as “Genuine Indian” when they are not. Just the opposite of what you described, this law in not against Indians, but against non-Indians who would exploit Indians. Also, Indians can make any legal product and sell it without putting their roll number on it as long as they don’t say it’s “Genuine Indian”. You have said you don’t think like I do, and I see that’s the case. You look at a law designed to help your people and twist it into something that’s against your people.
When I made comments about different ways Indians could get out of poverty you responded with this statement on Feb 9th:
When I then wrote “And how does your job do that? By making more money than you need to live on I bet.” you responded with the following statement on Feb 9th:
You say “I have a decent job, make decent money.” but when I say you have more money than you need to live on you say “I live paycheck to paycheck”. Maybe that’s not a contradiction in your thinking, but it should be.
Look at these two sentence of yours from Feb 10th:
Do you see the opportunity in what you said, or is it somehow outside your thinking? If the people who resell them marked up 3 times are not of the tribe, cut them out of the loop by selling directly on Ebay, which is also a much broader market than a powwow, so the items will sell for more. Buyers also pay extra for shipping. That second sentence blows me away. You mean to tell me there’s no one willing to put up the money to have those able to do crafts perform their work when there’s a 300% markup on the products? Somebody has their head in the sand on that one.
Visit the Mdewakanton Sioux to see how rich Indians live. Maybe you can talk them into fronting the money so Indians on remote reservation can do their crafts. In fact, maybe you could get them to market those crafts. Sorry, just another non-Indian idea. I guess that’s why tribes hire outside people to manage the tribe’s businesses.
No doubt there’s some pride involved, but that’s true of all who write on blogs, as if anyone else cares what we have to say. I also participate because, by the light others provide I’m better able to formulate my own opinions and philosophy. What I have gained from this discussion is a sense of how some Indians view non-Indians and of how some Indians think. No, I can’t know what it’s like being an Indian, but I did grow up dirt poor and suffered discrimination like many others. I also went into the military where I got job experience, got out and have been working ever since. As a sideline I have an on-line business and know first hand there are many opportunities for people to make money on-line. You just have to train yourself to see the possibilities rather than the problems.
It’s interesting that you quote Carl Sagan. Did you know he was an Atheist to his dying day? The bamboozle and charlatan he was talking about is religion and those who preach it. He was talking about people like you and me, not about the dominate secular culture, which he fully embraced.
That’s because you don’t have the patients, courage, knowledge, or intellect Lyn has.