Last week, when I wrote why I am a supporter of Israel, one commenter was struck speechless. I so dumbfounded “Montreal” (the moron, not the city) cut and pasted an entire opinion piece from AltMuslim into the comments thread. In all fairness, he did include the author’s name and a link to the piece, but from what I can tell, the only thing he/she/it had to say on their own was their own signature name — and that they took from Canada, too.
I could take the easy way out, just note that “Montreal” said nothing of their own, and therefore really had nothing to rebut. But I think not. Let’s look at those ten proposed “movies” and hold them up to reality, shall we?
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Jay, Montreal province?
That’s it, sing it with me now…
“Blame Canada, Blame Canada”
I’ve noticed as well, that when Israel retaliates against an attack after a so-called “cease fire” where the Pals never stopped firing it is they who take the blame for “breaking” the peace.
I call it the ‘he hit me back first!’ defense…
Aw, crud… thanks, Levans. Reference to Montreal being a province deleted.
J.
Geez, I thought Montreal was something to sprinkle on my steaks before I grilled them…
Good rebuttal, Jay, and happy new year to you and yours.
Hey, Jay Tea (and all here), Happy New Year. It just goes to show how habituated ~some of us~ are to Wizbang…it’s frickin’ New Year’s Day and here I am at Wizbang, sheesh.
Anyway, I can’t be the only person who is straining to comprehend the point here, having missed reading for a few days with any thoroughness. I can say, as an overview, that when/if any blog writes anything that indicates even so much as a slight support of Israel as a nation, the Palestinian-Muslim thing will appear in the comments section. There are many websites now on the internet recently created, apparently, for that very purpose…to host the content and then try for links and reprints of it on the sites alluding to Israel.
I’d be interested in reading the history of just why and how Palestine thinks it lays claim to the area and Israel has no place there. A simple rendition, sans the theology. Because, they are, generally, all “Arabs” and the Middle East seems populated by Arabs and I still don’t get it why Palestine concludes the “be Muslim or die” approach to the Middle East. They lose my vote of good faith on a purely intellectual basis alone because of that.
The film issue, however…I should go peruse earlier entries here to even understand, beyond MUNICH’s inaccurate references to history.
Re: “The US government has repeatedly investigated the incident, and the conclusion is always the same: it was not a deliberate attack on the US.”
If you have the courage of your convictions contact the Senate Historian and have your Congressional Delegation contact the Congressional Research Service with the simple question — has the US government ever conducted an investigation of the attack on the USS Liberty.
The answer will be a universal “NO”.
Whatever conclusions are contained in US government documents that claim the attack was not a deliberate attack on a US Navy Ship are not based upon a US government investigation of the attack because there was none.
Even if the attack was the mistake you claim it to be there is still the question of the War Crimes that were committed by and against the United States during the attack.
Those War Crimes are detailed in the “Report of War Crimes Committed Against the U.S. Military, June 8, 1967” which we filed with the Department of Defense on June 8, 2005.
A copy of that War Crimes Report is available for viewing or downloading from our website at http://www.ussliberty.com.
More information about the attack on the USS Liberty is available at http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com.
Regarding the King David Hotel attack, the Jews provided warning which, after years of denial, the Brits finally admitted. Not exactly the typical method of operation for Palestinian terror.
Joe, I have not spent anywhere near as much time on the Liberty matter as you have, and have nowhere near the motivation that you do on the matter. Nor do I wish to debate the details. All I will say is that my own casual research into the incident has convinced me that it was not a deliberate attack against the United States, and certainly was not a part of a grand pattern of hostility to the United States.
Finally, the Liberty incident constitutes a scant 10% of the above posting. Even if the situation were not as I believe it happened, and was a deliberate act of war against the United States, the matter has been settled to the satisfaction of both governments and has not been emblematic of US-Israeli relations before or since — and that is the crux of my thesis.
J.
Mr. “Tea”‘s verbatim plagiarism of the Israeli playbook to chastise another plagiarist is downright comedic.
I was on the USS Liberty June 8 1967. I was on the morning watch at the bow of the ship. I saw with my own eyes a bucket of bolts that almost hit Our mast. There was a large STAR of David on it’s staboard side. This was before the DELIBERATE ATTACK! They knew very well who we were!!!!!
I saw Our Flag full out on watch and at my GQ station on the fantail, until I was hit with over 100 Schrapnel WOUNDS! I was there, where were you? Were you Born?? I know the TRUTH and a day will come when I get to Testify my Eyewitiness account. You guys can research all the LIES you want but, they are only LIES even over 38yrs later!!
The point I was trying to make with regard to the USS Liberty was to address the myth that the attack has been investigated by the US government.
It has not been.
That fact can be independently verified by contacting either the Senate Historian or by having your Congressional Delegation contact the Congressional Research Service.
Our efforts are geared toward correcting that fact and will not cease until there is a proper, complete and public investigation of the attack on our ship.
Ed:
Plagiarism is a very serious charge. It means using another’s words as one’s own without giving credit. I probably overstretched the meaning, when “Montreal” actually did give credit, but it remains a simple cutting and pasting of others’ words.
My own response was in my own words, backed up by either prior research or quick, on-the-spot checks of the facts. I used no one else’s words for any of it — in each case I summarized in my own language and style. If you have evidence to the contrary that I used others’ words, show so. Otherwise, cram it.
J.
“”King David Hotel” — as I understand the Geneva Convention, combatants are required to stay away from civliians as much as possible, not to mingle with them. The British set up their military headquarters in a civlian hotel, and ignored several warnings that they would be attacked. Therefore, under international law, the onus is upon them.”
Interesting. The test of such statements would be to ask if you feel it would be equally justifiable for terrorists to strike at American targets if they were housed in a similar situation. Do you?
From reading the report on the on ussliberty.com, it looks like the USS Liberty incident is a cover-up by both the governments of Israel and the U.S. The real question is why? The ussliberty.com site reports that the USS Liberty was a “state of the art signals intelligence (SIGINT) platform.” In short, it was a spy ship on a mission “approximately 17 miles off the Gaza coast” during the 6 day war. Israel was in a fight for it’s survival and the outcome was not yet clear on June 8, 1967 when the USS Liberty was attacked. What secret could the USS Liberty have leaned that would motivate Israel to blatantly attack a U.S. Navy ship? If I remember right, the U.S. published satellite photos showing the battlefield, that on a global political level, had a calming effect between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R., but might have undermined some tactical advantage Israel had. Israel might have been concerned the U.S. would similarly share other intelligence, and while pure speculation on my part, could it be the USS Liberty intercepted Israel’s plans to use a nuclear weapon, the vary existence of which is a top Israeli secret? One thing is apparent from the report on ussliberty.com, the Israeli forces could have easily sunk the USS Liberty, but it was their intention to board the ship. I speculate the reason was to find out what information the USS Liberty intercepted and the methods it used.
I doubt the USS Liberty Veterans have much of a chance getting an official investigation started. They are private U.S. citizens and don’t seem to be alleging they themselves committed war crimes, so U.S. law wouldn’t seem to apply. Related treaties are between nations, not individuals, and can only be invoked by nations, and if neither the U.S. nor Israel wants to take official action, the treaties are moot. Apparently, the real reason why Israel attacked a U.S. Navy ship can’t yet be told.
As a veteran myself, I support the USS Liberty Veterans in asking for an investigation. Apart from that, I support the survivors receiving monitory compensation for what they suffered. This nation has to take good care of its veterans, particularly now that we have an all voluntary military. It’s not only the right thing to do, but you better believe young folks look to see how veterans are treated before deciding to join the military.
That’s “…receiving monetary compensation…”
Mordechai Vanunu: admitted traitor who violated his signed oaths to reveal the highest of state secrets of Israel. (A quick aside: Israel has never signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, so its possession of nuclear weapons — never formally admitted — is not a violation of international law.) Had Israel a death penalty, he could have been executed.
In a time of universal deceit – telling the truth is a revolutionary act. – George Orwell
You mentioned the “Chevron massacre”. The actual Chevron massacre occured on Saturday morning, August 23, 1929 (16 Av, 5689 in the Jewish calendar), rampaging mobs of Arabs murdered69 Jews and destroyed the community. I knew one of the survivors who had been left for dead. A more valid movie would have been about that incident.
One of the points overlooked by many people is that the government of Israel kept calling the U.S. Government to find out if the Liberty was a U.S. ship or not. The U.S. Navy and State Department kept denying that aany U.S. ships were in the area. As a result, the Israelis concluded that it was a false flag incident being set up by the Egyptians. One of the people who was in the Israeli war room at the time had been sent with messages to the U.S. ambassador as well as phoning Washington to try to get the information. He later testified as to his actions.
It is quite possible that the U.S. flag was seen by the attackers, however, since the U.S. Navy said that it was not a U.S. ship, the Israelis were justified in treating it as a spy ship flying a false flag.
To argue the the point of an intentional attack or an accidental attack, is not applicable here. Since Israeli planes made numerous passes over the Liberty, the last so close we could look into the cockpit and exchange waves with the pilot. When the attack planes arrived, they made no passes to attempt any identity, just came in shooting. If the story of the planes making a mistake of “accidental attack” would be bought by anyone in this world, the actions of the torpedo boats is outrageous and should be believed by NO ONE! Cirling the ship shooting continuously, especially at anyone still alive on deck, from their closeness to the Liberty would provide them with the HUGE letters AGTR-5 on the bows, USS Liberty painted on the fantail and finally the most apparent object in view, was the ship’s holiday colors (think Perkins) which had been raised when the original flag was damaged. No one on this planet would come to any other conclusion than it was a US Navy ship. Even after putting a torpedo into the starboard side of the ship and it lay still in the water, they continued to fire at us, and then machine gunned life rafts that were released after the announcement “prepare to abandon ship” was made.
The real point of the affair is that crewmen (survivors), were given a direct order, with threats, to speak to no one about this attack, even to our own families. The reason ? ? ? The only true investigation by this country was done by the US Navy, which has since been officially reported as a fraud, by two Navy JAG offocers that were ordered to make the end result, that it was an “accident”. Thus making the attack on the USS Liberty the only US Navy ship that was not investigated by our Congress.
The other problem is that actions by Israel such as this attack, bulldozing an American girl, just trying to save someones house, or Israeli agents stealing US secrets, selling the secrets to US enemies (making the thief a national hero) and costing more American lives and many more may not be discussed by anyone in any country without being labeled “Anti-Semetic”, even though none of it has anything to do with the Jewish religion whatsoever. I believe the War Crimes report (with no mention of any religion) we have filed with the Dept. of Defense, has already taken on this name, thus guess what will happen to this report.
I don’t know of one survivor that will give up on the need for an investigation and the truth of why Israel’s murdered American service men and the United States government not only accepting the “accident” theme, but treating the survivors and the families of those killed like they are the one’s responsible for the entire event from start to finish
The crew members of the USS Liberty are ture American heros, banished to an invisible existence.
bulldozing an American girl, just trying to save someones house
You just lost all credibility. She was trying to protect houses that are used as endpoints for munitions smuggling tunnels. Intentionally getting in the way of a large moving object is a good way to win a Darwin award. And she did.
Why would Israel attack an American ship?
The answer’s easy – Because they can!
Yes Mr. “Tea”, there is no AIPAC.
The answer’s easy – Because they can!
Huh? You make no sense.
And there is an AIPAC, just as there’s a very vocal CAIR…….
“One of the points overlooked by many people is that the government of Israel kept calling the U.S. Government to find out if the Liberty was a U.S. ship or not. The U.S. Navy and State Department kept denying that aany U.S. ships were in the area.”
Sabba Hillel, reference please?
You just lost all credibility. She was trying to protect houses that are used as endpoints for munitions smuggling tunnels. Intentionally getting in the way of a large moving object is a good way to win a Darwin award. And she did.
Since she had been asked to move and didn’t, wouldn’t the proper option be to remove her from the site, rather thank murder her?
USS Liberty “Bad things happen in the heat of war”
Only when two countries are actually at war.
Apologizing for “accidentally” attacking the USS Liberty is no apology at all. It was a fully intentional attack launched on a visibly obvious American surveillance ship, inside international waters. The Israeli army attacked with the purpose of sinking that ship, they only backed off when another US ship came close.
The American government wasn’t completely convinced that the attack was by mistake. US Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, and Joint Chiefs of Staff head, Admiral Thomas Moorer, insisted the Israeli attack was deliberate and designed to sink Liberty. So did three CIA reports; one even asserted Israel’s Defense Minister, Gen. Moshe Dayan, had personally ordered the attack.
The Liberty was attacked because it was watching everything that was going on during the 6 day war. When Israel claimed that they were retaliating to an Egyptian invasion, the USS Liberty was able to see that it wasn’t true. Israel was in fact launching a pre-emptive strike against Egypt. And when they turned to Syria, to seize its strategic Golan Heights, the Americans warned them to back off, as Syria hadn’t gotten involved in fighting at that point. The Liberty was “accidentally” attacked and taken out of communication. Then Israel claimed that Syria attacked them, so they “fought back”. Who knows if they did, nobody was watching at that point.
The Israelis were looking to strike first, in case they were potentially struck, and in doing so they wanted to take strategic positions and alsi claim the West Bank and Gaza. That they were proven by the Liberty to have pre-emptively attacked, makes their claims to those lands less legitimate.
For whatever reason Johnson covered it up, the survivors have kept it from disappearing out of public consciousness. I hope that one day they get an investigation that they rightly deserve.
There is very substantial evidence that the International Solidarity Movement and/or its Palestinian handlers were recklessly negligent (or worse) with regard to Rachel Corrie. This Rishmawi character is just too arrogant and/or stupid to keep his mouth shut– like a movie villain who can’t help yelling “BWA-ha-ha-ha-ha!” when his evil plan succeeds. In conjunction with the Hamas terrorist’s statement, this sure as heck shows motive.
http://www.standwithus.com/news_post.asp?NPI=85 “Recently, the Director of the Solidarity Movement, George Rishmawi, explained to the San Francisco Chronicle that the recruitment of American student volunteers is useful to the Palestinian Movement because “if some of these foreign volunteers get shot or even killed, then the international media will sit up and take notice.””
# A Hamas terrorist said openly that Rachel was worth more dead than alive. “‘Her death serves me more than it served her,’ said one activist at a Hamas funeral yesterday. ‘…Her death will bring more attention than the other 2,000 martyrs.'” Making of a Martyr by Sandra Jordan, Guardian Newspapers
# The ISM posted photomanipulated fake photos in conjunction with Rachel Corrie’s death.
# Although several of Rachel’s “friends” in the ISM testified vigorously about their eyewitness accounts of her death, but not one of them lifted a finger to pull her out of the slowly-moving bulldozer’s path. This suggests at best a callous disregard for the young woman’s life, and perhaps something even worse.
“Gaza. Once again the story of Mohammed Al-Dura comes up, But once again the full story is overlooked — further investigations have given strong evidence that the boy was most likely struck by Palestinian bullets, and further speculation that it was done to punish the father for allegedly “collaborating” with Israel.”
as a matter of FACT.
the bullets had been fired from the side of where the isreali soldiers where. Also there was a wall which muhammad al dura and his father where held against, so there could be no way, the father and son where caught in a CRoss fire. Also Isreali jeeps where positioned directly infront of the Wall where muhammad and his father where positioned at.
My Sources are a Video tape at the seen recorded by reporters which have also been shot at during the conflict.
Get your facts straight. Myth and Conspiracy do not always work for every case. This is an Open and shut case. Isreali soldiers Murdered the palestinian Father and his Son Muhammad Al dura.
P.S
Palestinians dont kill trators that way!
They hang them on light poles. After a public execution. and anyway if Palestinians where to blame for the killing… why where Isreali soldiers at the scene in the First place? i honestly disagree that they were protecting Muhammad and his father from palestinian authority