Last night, I stirred up a bit of controversy when I discussed certain Mormons’ habit of baptizing by proxy the deceased, in particular Jewish victims of the Holocaust. My disapproval of that practice started a bit of a hullabaloo in the comments section, so I thought I’d expand and elaborate on my take on the matter.
But first, a couple of stories I recall from the last few years. (Dammit, I can’t find the accounts, but I’m 99% I recall the details correctly.) The first story was about a private school in — I think — New York, where one of the teachers took the children away from the school and had them baptized, without the parents’ knowledge.
The second story I did find online. An elementary school had an Islamic “trainer” educate the children on Islamic traditions and history. As part of the program, he led the children in reciting the Islamic Proclamation of Faith.
The only problem is, under the Tenets of Islam, simply reciting that Proclamation is enough to establish one as a Muslim. From that point, leaving Islam is considered apostasy, and to many parts of Islam, apostasy is punishable by death. Those children are, technically, bould to obey the rules of Islam for the rest of their lives, upon pain of death, for participating in a required classroom exercise.
And then we have the Mormons, who hold baptism ceremonies for those who died in the Holocaust.
All three examples have one element in common: people inducting others into their religion. People who are not legally capable of making such commitments on their own. And those inductions are being made not only without the consent of those authorized to make such decisions, but in direct contravention of their wishes. And that I find utterly unacceptable.
Now, I freely admit that the Mormons’ offense is orders of magnitude less than the other two cases, but I think I am more bothered by the Mormons’ because I have always expected more from them. With one slight exception*, every single experience I’ve had with Mormons has been unerringly positive. I have a few issues with some of their doctrine, but the individuals have almost always struck me as fine, upstanding, decent, moral people. I’m very impressed with Mitt Romney, the current governor of Massachusetts, and I think he’s eying the White House for 2008 — and I think the GOP could do worse.
But I keep coming back to one image, one speculation in the case of the Mormons baptizing Holocaust victims. I keep seeing some Jewish man approaching a Mormon and speaking to them:
“My grandfather was born a Jew. He was raised a Jew. He lived his entire life as a Jew. He died as a Jew. He died because he was a Jew. He was murdered simply because he was a Jew. Who are you to try to take that away from him?”
And I don’t buy the argument that it’s done for selfless reasons. It’s not selflessness, it’s arrogance. And especially in light of the Mormon Church’s agreement in 1995 to stop baptizing Holocaust victims, it’s even more reprehensible for them to continue the practice. If a church can’t be trusted to keep its word in a matter such as this, then where is its moral standing?
J.
(I’ve closed the comments in the previous thread. If you want to continue the discussion, do so here.)
Update: I accidentally posted the wrong link on the first posting. The story on the baptisms is here.
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Bullwinkle wrote:
It would also be nothing more than a symbolic act if I rented a billboard on every main highway into Salt Lake City and that said “All Mormons Must Repent or Face an Eternity in Hell!” but I probably wouldn’t live long enough to pay the second month’s rent.
Actually, Joseph Smith said something quite similar, so no, you would probably live to make the 2nd months rent. Problem is, it isn’t something Mormons haven’t heard before. In fact, except for what you believe Hell to be, we believe that as well.
I’m not mormon, I don’t claim to understand this completely. But from what I remember, don’t you get to choose whether to accept your baptism by proxy or not? I don’t think that just by them baptising you, you automatically become mormon. You just get on last chance. That seems a bit friendlier, them giving you the option, than most of the other groups who just comdemn you once you die.
One more thing…I grew up in a “cult”. Recovering Jehovah’s Witness. I really don’t like them. But I still hate hearing them called a cult. It’s just not a nice word.
julie, get a life. You delight in reading far too much into other people’s statements to twist them for maximum offensiveness.
I neither offered endorsement or agreement with Red Five’s precise assessment of the Mormon church. I’m simply saying that it’s a bit disingenuous for LDS’ers to be so darn horrified by such claims against their church. Joseph smith himself believed that the entire Christian church had descended into apostasy—and that’s just the beginning.
But my ultimate point was that it doesn’t matter. If a religion claims to have an exclusive corner on the ultimate truth, as nearly all do, then you’re just going to have to decide for yourself whether it is right or not. And then just relax for crying out loud.
Note to all LDS’ers: you are more than welcome to conduct a proxy baptism after my death. Go ahead. I personally don’t believe it will have an effect. But I appreciate your genuine concern for my soul. I do hope you don’t mind that I pray that the veil is lifted from your eyes as well and that you see the great errors in your doctrine, turn from it, and return to trinitarian Christianity.
I take major exception that the mormons are normal people, good people – maybe they are at your door but mormons are whackos and we should not have to put up with them at all. Egads, I think I dislike them the most.
Cindy
If you’re one the several that have stated that I have no reason to be offended by church sanctioned acts against my religion but are arguing against an individual’s personal opinions and comments about your own you might want to reconsider whether or not Jews have a valid point here. If you are one of the Mormons that have told me it’s no big deal and I shouldn’t be bothered by proxy baptisms but have accused me of bashing your religion simply because I’ve stated that I think it’s wrong and should be stopped you might want to reconsider that too. It looks like to me that everyone is sensitive about their religion and more than willing to defend it but at the same time they really don’t think any other religion is worthy of that.
As a believing Mormon and regular reader, I’d like to enlighten the wizbang masses regarding the proxy-baptism issue and Mormonism in general. (There seems to be a lot of misinformation.)
• Yes, we Mormons do proxy baptisms. And yes, it is something of a (ahem) unique practice…Biblical…but unique.
• We mean no offense, we are simply trying to live our religion as we feel it has been commanded of God.
• These baptisms are performed as a no-obligation gesture for those we hope have accepted the Gospel while waiting for the resurrection. We are not forcing conversion on anyone, saving anyone, or making anyone a post-mortem Mormon.
• We do not target Jews for proxy-baptism. We have added names to the list, and a few have turned out to be Jews.
• In regards to the specific current controversy that Tea J has referred to — genealogists found less than 6,000 names of Jewish names in a database of 400,000,000 people. That is what the latest brouhaha is all about.
• The Mormon Church has honored the 1995 agreement in full. Some Jewish groups are simply frustrated that there are still a tiny number of names being added to the genealogical database that are discovered later to be Jewish. (As per the 1995 agreement, the Mormon Church has immediately deleted any Jewish names that have been identified as Jewish.)
• The issue has been resolved. The Church met with the offended Jewish Groups this week. The meetings were warm and productive. (http://www.sltrib.com/search/ci_2651844)
• The 1995 agreement was reaffirmed with only the slight modification that a joint Mormon/Jewish working group would be formed to better understand how Jewish names are accidentally being added.
On Mormonism in general, you may be interested to know:
• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormon) is the fourth largest Church in the United States. We are pluralists in regards to how we co-exist and live among people of all faiths. About the only folks that call us a cult today are extremist Evangelical Christians. (But then…they generally think anyone they do not agree with is a cult.)
• Mormons consider ourselves to be sincere, dedicated Christians. Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.
• Mormon do believe that we have the correct and God-approved version of the Gospel. No offense intended…but that is what we believe.
• Mormon love and read the Bible. (We prefer the KJV) Research by the Barna Group found that Mormons and Pentecosts are more likely to read the Bible than any other Christian groups.
• Mormons believe in Christian service. We have our own complete welfare system of farms, food-factories, and production centers to provide welfare assistance to the needy. As a Church, we fast one day a month and donate the money we would have spent on food to the needy.
• Mormons are as human and flawed as anyone. We try to be good, decent, caring people. Please excuse us when we fail. Please understand that when our beliefs conflict with yours, we’ll try to be as respectful and non-offensive as we can.
I hope that helps a little.
Sure. I suppose you have a right to be offended when a person of a certain religious bent acts in a way that suggests that your religious bent is false, misguided, or heretical.
But you’re going to be offended by just about everyone outside of your faith, then. So I hope it’s worth your time.
Bullwinkle:
I distinguish between baptism of the dead and saying a religion is based on devil worship. I don’t see much difference between that and stating Jews drink the blood of Christian babies blah blah blah, which I am sure I can find a link for. However, it doesn’t make it true and it won’t make me not an anti-semite.
Mcq: You get a life. They are your statements. If they make you come off as a jerk, that’s your problem, not mine.
I stated pretty clearly that it was my opinion that the CC was nearly (That’s NEARLY, as in CLOSE, but NOT QUITE) idolatrous. If you don’t believe that, that’s fine; just don’t you dare criticize me obscenely if I do.
Red Five: The caps for “nearly”, “close”, “not quite” are classic. Here’s some more caps for you: FUCK YOU.
I’ll gladly let people compare my words with yours side by side any day, julie.
For all those other bloggers that have said this was a stupid topic and a waste of time, how many of you got this many comments at your blog in the last few day? How many of you got a link from Google news?
Dibs on the dead guy — take II
Wizbang, DC – 13 hours ago
… of controversy when I discussed certain Mormons’ habit of baptizing by proxy the deceased … I keep seeing some Jewish man approaching a Mormon and speaking to them …
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=proxy+mormon
Julie, the Mormon church is say that Judaism is based on nothing by doing proxy baptisms of Jews. Kinda funny that feel that way though, since all Christianity is based Judaism. Everyone keeps assuming that only jews are victims of this, it’s been proven that at least one Roman Catholic was baptized by proxy also. If they inducted Adolph Hitler into their own verion of the sky lounge club what makes anyone believe that that haven’t done the same for millions of other Catholics? The same goes for Protestants too. Their official spokeman and several church members commenting in here made it clear that only Mormons are going to heaven as far as they are concerned so I think it’s a pretty safe assumption that if they removed 380,000 Jews from the list in 1995 that their list could easily have members of other religions numbering in the tens of millions.
The Mormons’ practice of proxy baptism is always blown out of proportion. Put simply and accurately, a proxy baptism is directly akin to giving someone a ticket to concert and saying, “Here, you can use this ticket if you want to. You’ll have to find your own ride to the concert (i.e., you have to do something yourself to make use of the ticket), but it’s yours if you want it.
Mormons don’t force anyone to join their religion and a proxy baptism is simply a free gift to be accepted or not accepted as the individial desires.
Regarding the comment about “arrogance”, the Mormons’ belief that there are three “glories” (or heavens–as the KJV New Testament refers to them as) is perhaps the least arrogant and most merciful and gracious belief regarding heaven and hell that could be found among modern religions. Strictly speaking, Mormons do not believe in “heaven and hell” but rather believe that all people on the earth will go to one of three good places–places that are far better than the world that we currently live in. Only a few people (like Judas Iscariot) will be consigned to “Outer Darkness”, which could be described as a hell-like place.
To go on and on saying Mormons are arrogant because they believe that only they can go to heaven is completely erroneous and ignores the actual doctrine.
Bullwinkle: “I think it’s a pretty safe assumption that if they removed 380,000 Jews from the list in 1995 that their list could easily have members of other religions numbering in the tens of millions.”
That is true. We Mormons believe that every human that has ever lived, is living, or will live is a son or daughter of God. When it comes to procy baptisms, we make no judgements or distinctions. All are God’s children and recieve proxy bapstims without regard to race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic group, religion, status, or whether or not they were good or bad people here in mortality.
Hope that helps.
Derek, from what you have stated we can assume that Mormons ARE arrogant, incredibly arrogant, and believe that no other religion can make into the “super deluxe” accomodations of heaven without getting the Mormon first class upgrade. Everyone else flies coach. I usually don’t make asumptions but in the case of Mormons I’m willing to make an exception, your arrogant religion keeps assuming that anyone not a member needs your help to get the upgrade and assuming the first class accomodations exist in the first place.
BoDiddley;
The difference between a Christian missionary and this practice is that a missionary should proclaim the gospel in the firmest yet most polite way they can. This follows Gods example of free will. I will admit that some over zealous followers (Crusaders?) will cross that line, but it is not and should not be accepted practice.
The practice of this discussion is that no choice (from what I can tell) is given to the person this is being performed for (butchered that sentence, but you get the idea). This practice is just wrong.
Just John;
Can I be a charter member?
Bullwinkle, for there to be a “victim” there must be actual harm inflicted. You have yet to establish that any harm has been done to dead people, Jew or otherwise. What is the harm, precisely? There is a presumption in my question that you are speaking on behalf of these dead people rather than your own feelings. I am trying very hard to understand what their sensitivity to this affront might be, but I am failing.
It bothers me none that Mormons are baptising dead Christians or anyone else supposedly incapable of making this choice. We baptize babies incapable of making this choice, and we pray for people of other faiths, even Jews.
Then the the comparison will have to combine yours with Red Five since yours endorsed hers.
Bullwinkle just wants to be offended, that’s all. It just happens to be the Mormons he’s pouncing on today. But by his own standards it won’t be long until he’s pissed off at conservative Christians, pre-Vatican II Catholics (and even to an extent post-Vatican II Catholics), Muslims, Jehovas Witnesses… or maybe he’ll be pissed of at atheists who deny any afterlife whatsoever.
“For all those other bloggers that have said this was a stupid topic and a waste of time, how many of you got this many comments at your blog in the last few day? How many of you got a link from Google news?”
Is that how you judge whether a topic is worthy? I once got 97 comments on a post about farting.
The practice of this discussion is that no choice (from what I can tell) is given to the person this is being performed for (butchered that sentence, but you get the idea). This practice is just wrong.
No, your understanding of it is wrong. Yes, the proxy baptism itself is done without the permission of the person—which would be difficult to secure anyway because he is dead. But all this does, if you believe the Mormon doctrine on the issue, is clear a pathway for said dead person to make the choice for himself. Free will is not sacrificed here.
Or are you also offended at anyone who prays for the souls of people who are outside of their religion? That’s basically the same thing.
Michele, was fart worthy of a Google news link? If so please keep a safe distance away from me……
bullwinkle, to be fair, whatever Wizbang talks about will end up in Google News, because Google News preapproves the sites it searches. So if Wizbang wants to talk about farting, it’ll show up on Google News eventually.
Jay, I hereby induct you into a new religion I made up; if you don’t like it, TOUGH. You seem to miss the fact that freedom of religion means people can do this – IT’S JUST A BUNCH OF MUMBO JUMBO IN THEIR OWN HOUSE OF WORSHIP. Get over it.
Justin B missed a few possible outcomes though.
What if the Evangelicals are right, and BOTH the Jews and the Mormons who posthumously baptized them end up in hell – will they blame each other?
What if the Hindus and Buddhists are right and the Jews come back as Mormons and the Mormons come back as Jews – paybacks are hell. What if the Catholics are right and re-baptism condemns one to hell – then everybody BUT the Jews has a bone to pick with the Mormons, because the Jews were never baptized while alive. Wow, it’s just so complicated. When they’re baptizing them, if they float (or weigh less than a duck) are they then exposed as witches and damned anyway?
Jay, are you beginning to see just how ridiculous your outrage over this is?
Mcq, the Mormons are accusing me of bashing them simply because I stated that one of their practices is offensive me but they, like you, see no offense in them have a policy that states that my religion is worthless. If you can’t see the difference and think that I shouldn’t be offended by that there is something very wrong with you. You just commented about my be offended is somehow offending you. I cetainly haven’t ever claimed that their religion is worthless, or that Mormons can;t get into the inner ring of heaven, if I had I’d understand how they could take offense at that. All I’ve said is that they have a pratice that involves my religion that I don’t think is right. I think one practice of their religion is wrong, they claim that my whole religion is wrong.
Damn, this has been an active thread. Anyways….
If it’s “no big deal” – why do it in the first place? If it’s out of respect, well, it’s causing a whole boatload of DISrespect. I don’t need a relatively new religion telling me that mine is somehow deficient – may be to them it is, but right back at ya, and I at least have a rather extensive history to back me up.
Wacky Hermit, while I’m glad that you have found spiritual contentment, I certainly hope we’re not related. My ancestors lived the faith, some died for it, and I’d hate to think that what they lived and died for is being discarded.
You need to grow a thicker skin then, Bullwinkle.
Let’s go to the Bible for a moment, and set aside any LDS reinterpretations thereof.
Jesus Christ must be offensive to you. After all, he said “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me.” And everyone seems to know John 3:16 (“For God so loved the world…”), but how odd that John 3:18-19 is glossed over: “Whoever believes in [Jesus] is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.”
So there you have it. Right from Jesus’ own mouth. You don’t believe in Him? You are condemned. And this is not just some random practicer of the faith, this is the creator of the faith himself. He was either a bit off his rocker or we’d darn well better listen.
So like I said, quite a few religions claim an exclusive corner on the truth, including what it takes to either 1) avoid eternal torment or 2) achieve eternal bliss. What are these religions’ adherents supposed to do, just give you a pass? Decide that God must have it wrong because he’s just not playing nice enough? I for one believe that God is good, and that when we die, it will be clear to everyone that he is being fair and just—even if that means some, or even many, are in hell. I don’t quite see how, but I see through a glass darkly now anway.
Furthermore, the Mormon’s don’t have a practice that “involves your religion.” Nothing they are doing is preventing you from practicing your religion. But what they are doing is doing everything they can do to make sure that if they are right and you are wrong, that you get the best shot possible. If they are wrong and you are right, then what they are doing is worthless.
And just to be clear, I DO believe that these proxy baptisms are worthless. But futile or not, I appreciate the fact that they care enough for non-believers to do what they can for them.
Julie – I’ve been reading selected comment threads and have noticed a lot of people calling you a troll and haven’t known why. Now I do. I find it very interesting that you’re opining on Red Five’s religiousness while calling people names, swearing, and basically ignoring every rule of polite discussion. Add me to the list of people who will refuse to talk to you, even when you are being polite.
McCain – I agree that bigoted opinions have a consequence in the real world – but I still fail to see how Red Five’s opinion is bigoted. Misinformed, perhaps, but not bigoted.
-S- – As I said previously, I’m an EX-Mormon, and I do believe that the Mormon religion is not Christian, although I’m not going to call it a cult because that generally gets you nowhere. There’s certainly a lot of problems with it, like the ones you mention, and I could go way into it with reasons and explanations…but then all the Mormons on here will protest “but we DO believe Christ’s atonement is necessary for salvation and the forgiveness of our sins and we DO believe in the Bible and read it all the time”…etc. And they do. The problem is that unlike other Christian religions, in the Mormon religion Jesus and the Bible become a few more variables in the equation rather than the be all and end all that they are elsewhere. When you go to a Christian service the songs, the testimonies, the prayers, the sermons are 90% about Jesus and God. When you go to a Mormon service, there’s Jesus and God and Joseph Smith and the president (of the church) and the Book of Mormon and the priesthood and the temple etc. etc. Jesus kind of gets lost in the shuffle. I do think there are some Mormons who really do get it, but I think the majority don’t see around all the stuff in the way.
That’s why it’s really hard to talk to them about it. In a doctrinal sense, yes, most of the stuff central to Christianity is there in some way or another, so just calling them un-Christian because of this and this and this is not going to cut it. I don’t think most Mormons even realize the difference between their religion and the regular Christian religions. Their take on it all is that we’re missing all this stuff…my take on it all is that they’ve got so much other stuff going on they’re losing sight of the most important thing.
BoDiddly – Nice quote. Some here would do well to listen to it. “This is a problem with the “any belief is equally valid” axiom of our day, when any statement of doctrinal error is seen as persecution.”
My ancestors lived the faith, some died for it, and I’d hate to think that what they lived and died for is being discarded.
Well, then don’t think that. Just don’t. It’s pretty simple. After all, why in the world would anything that some ritual that an LDS’er is performing in a temple hundreds of miles away from you affect what you think about what your ancestors did for your faith?
I don’t exactly have a copy of the bible laying around here, but I have read it. The book that I consider to my “bible” stops before any mention of the world’s most famous Jew. Nowhere in that book does it say that skies darkened and a voice came out of the sky and said, “I was just kidding guys, disregard everything I’ve said up until now, I’ve decided to institute a policy change”, so I’m not too inclined to share your beliefs on the matter. I don’t share your beliefs but I don’t think you’re going to hell if you don’t change them either. You seem to think I’m going to hell if I don’t adopt yours and don’t mind telling me that and telling me I need to grow a thicker skin. You might understand why I’m offended if I was as intolerant of your beliefs as you and the Mormons are of mine. While it may seem to you and to the Mormons that they are somehow doing me and my people a favor it’s unwanted and we’ve made it clear many times in the past that we find it offensive and would like to see it stopped. It’s a favor we can get by just fine without and they could certainly struggle through life without doing.
What to say?
1) People who are offended by proxy baptisms (no corpses involved) choose to be offended. Anyone is free to induct me into their chosen religion after I shuffle off this mortal coil because I trust that God will judge me on my own actions.
2) While I’m open to criticisms of the LDS church, distortions of my beliefs are quite another thing. Upset that we think we’re the only ones right? Well, we do believe that. Claim that we believe we’re children of a polygamous alien on Kolob? There’s a distorted statement, and I will object to it.
But really, the problem here is that an LDS practice is offending some non-LDS people, with this offense resulting either from ignorance or caring too much what Mormons think of you. Yes, we think Jews are theologically wrong. We think that of all other religions. We won’t actually interefere with your practice of said religion, and we certainly should be kind to you (your milage may vary, depending on the actual Mormon), but we think you’re wrong.
Recently, The Vatican reaffirmed its position that LDS baptisms are not considered valid because the LDS church, in their opinion, falls outside of the Christian realm. From my experience, this generated a general shurg from the Mormons I know because we don’t care what the Pope thinks. To us, Christians are people who believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that forgiveness of sins occurs only because of His sacrifice. In that sense, most Mormons would agree that Catholics, Baptists, Evangelicals, Methodists, etc. are Christians as well (misguided, yes, but I’m not one to quibble).
As far as the term ‘cult’, this is about as useful a term as ‘zealot’ or ‘fanatic’. It’s a loaded terminology whose actual definition varies from person to person. I find the term unhelpful at best and do not use, and I suspect most professional researchers (ie, ones who don’t have an axe to grind) avoid the term as well.
Add me to the list of people who will refuse to talk to you, even when you are being polite.
VICTORY!
I once asked an evangelical Christian friend of mine a hypothetical question…. Let’s say that a child is born in the middle of Calcutta, India. He lives in poverty and has no education. He dies at the age of 20 having never even heard of Jesus Christ. What happens to him in the afterlife?
My friend answered that according to his belief the young man would go to hell.
Wow. So God is that unmerciful? The young man doesn’t even get a chance to accept Jesus Christ as his personal Savior?
The practice of proxy baptism by the Mormons is practiced under the belief that what Christ said, “only through me” can one enter the Kingdom of Heaven was true.
We therefore offer a baptism and a chance to accept Christ to everyone who has ever lived in the world–regardless of their race or religion. We, like the Jews, like the Catholics, like so many other religions, believe that we are the correct choice as far as religion is concerned. When you look at the actual doctrine of most religions, faiths, and churchs, there is a core belief that only they are right and correct.
It’s generally only wishy-washy members of religions that choose the philosophy that “all roads lead to heaven”.
One great problem is that people view the Mormon proxy baptism practice through their own “religious filters”. They insist on applying a heaven/hell simplicity to it when that is not the true Mormon doctrine. They also insist on defining proxy baptism as instant membership in the Mormon church when it is not. They also choose to view it as an affront when it is only gift–to be accepted or not based on individual free will.
I’m constantly surprised by critics of the Mormon church who make blanket statements in ignorance and who don’t seem to pay any attention to what our true doctrine is. There are lots of expamples of this type of ignorant “argument” (if one could call it that) on this thread.
When it comes to Mormons, critics always seem to assume guilt before even listening to what Mormons have to say.
Show me another religion, faith, or church who has an answer to the “child in Calcutta” question. There is a great, ponderable question there…how can God be merciful if he insists (Christian belief) that everyone must accept Jesus, yet there are still those in our modern world who will never even hear his name mentioned?
Well, bullwinkle, your problem then is not with the proxy baptism ritual in particular but the doctrinal claims of exclusivity in general. And while I can certainly understand your justifications of offense in that general sense, I frankly feel it is a simply waste of your time.
Incidentally, since we do share a good chunk of Scripture in common, I wonder if the Egyptians were offended when God decided to teach them that their gods were false by killing their first born. Or I wonder if the various tribes that God had the Israelites exterminate had wished that they wouldn’t do them that “favor”. (My point here is only to point out that there is even in the Hebrew scriptures a clear sentiment of absoute right and wrong, and that the Israelites were the exclusive purveyors of it.)
Derek –
Where did you get the idea that every religion has to have an answer to every question? I’m sure there is an answer to the “child in Calcutta” question, I just don’t know it…but I trust that God has one. But for the time being, I’m forced to assume that the only path to salvation is the only one that he laid out in the Bible.
I don’t think it is lost on the casual observer that those representing themselves as Mormons on this thread have been the most civil among us. It seems to me they are embracing and practicing the love of Christ as He taught us to do through Works.
In times of dire emergency, it is allowable for laymen to baptize others. I am declaring such an emergency on Wizbang today based on the animosity towards Mormons that I find here.
So who wants to be a Catholic, and I mean right now? I have already proxy-baptized several of you, by the way, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but I want to make sure thatI haven’t missed anyone. And Catholicism being the only completely true Christian faith, this may just protect you against those darn Mormons when you are dead.
Raina:
Nowhere did I say that every religion has to have an answer to every question. I was illustrating the fact Mormons are one of the few faiths that submit an answer to the question.
Derek – The submission means nothing if the answer isn’t true. I mean it’s real nice that you have an answer to a difficult question, but that doesn’t mean it’s the correct answer.
I have read every comment, including the “dead guy #1” comments.
Umm, you know how you can get yourself placed on a “Do Not Call” list concerning telemarketers? It may be a good product, but you just don’t want to hear about any product at all in this manner.
Do you know what a “Do Not Resuscitate” order is, concerning certain hospital patients? Yes, I know the doctor means well, but the patients wishes come before the actions of the well-meaning doctor.
I think what would satisfy bullwinkle (sorry if i’m putting words in your mouth), is if there is a way to “opt-out” of this well-meaning program. Better yet, you should probably have to “opt-in” to it. Geez, maybe we need to add a(nother) clause to our wills to address this.
Is there a “Do Not Baptize-by-Proxy” list that you can get yourself on?
Is there any way to “opt-out” of this program?
ClusterChuck:
No need to put it in your will. There has always been an “opt-out” clause. You as an individual simply don’t have to accept your proxy baptism (if it is ever done for you). The worst that can ever happen to you is that your name will appear on a list of those who have been offered the gift.
“Is there any way to “opt-out” of this program?”
From what I understand, you can opt-out after you are dead.
But you can’t opt out of MY program as I continue to proxy-baptize bloggers Catholic here on Wizbang. And I continue to pray for all who come to this thread, without exception, whether you like it or not. Those prayers are there, stuck to you like glue. No opting out.
Thanks McCain! Now I’ve been baptized three times for myself alone, not to mention those 10 proxy-baptisms I did when I was Mormon. I feel properly baptized now.
Wow! Lucky us, the Columbia House of religion allows us to opt out after they opt us in without asking and against our wishes. Just fill out the simple form and they’ll remove us from the list we didn’t want to be on in the first place. How generous of them.
Bullwinkle:
Your last comment illustrates perfectly how critics prefer to to distort the facts rather than stick to them. Nobody is “opted-in”. The gift is presented and anyone can refuse it if they wish. The fact that we keep a list of those who have been offered the gift is simply standard record-keeping so that we don’t waste our time doing it again and again.
The only distortion made by me was implying that Columbia House somehow compares, they don’t sign you up without being asked to first. What gives the Mormon church the right to make a list of people they don’t feel able to get into heaven? Maybe the Jews needs to make a list of people that aren’t allowed to visit Israel, Mormons. I’m positive that the Mormons wouldn’t find that offensive based on their statements about Jews having no reason to be offended by their list. After all, it would only be a symbolic act, denying access to the holy land for the short time Mormons spend on earth compared to the eternity they say we are denied going to heaven.