[Note: For whatever reason, MT ate some of the punctuation in the blockquote. Sorry bout that. It is right on Steven’s site.]
For a brief moment, I thought James Joyner had gone over the edge. Then I noticed it was a guest poster Leopold Stotch. I don’t remember a time I’ve disagreed both so intellectually and viscerally with Stotch. I was all set to do some serious keyboard abusing when I saw that Steven Taylor did it for me. Consider this a rant by proxy.
On Terrorism and Revolutions
Leopold Stotch, blogging at Outside The Beltway, hits one of my pet-peeves:
What Americans need to realize is that there really is no such thing as terrorism; there are revolutions you support (freedom fighters) and those that you dont (terrorists). But to label a person or a group terrorist is to say nothing more than that you disagree with their claims and their cause.
I wholly disagree with the whole one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter line of thinking. For one thing, not all who fight for freedom use terrorism, and certainly it would seem that most who employ terror arent fighting for freedom. I see, for example, no freedom fighting in what al Qaeda has done, and certainly the PLOs utilization of terror has hardly resulted in much freedom for anybody.
Terrorism is largely a tactic, and a group is defined by the degree to which that tactic accurately describes its basic operation. I see terrorism (and I defined it online here) as the specific targetting of civilians in order to foment fear, which, is created in hopes of changing the policies of governments. I do not see all collective political violence as terrorismI certainly dont see guerrilla movements as terrorists, per se (although they may engage in terroristic tactics at times, which, granted, blurs the lines a bit). However, if one takes a group like al Zarqawis that detonates car bombs in markets and kidnaps workers and beheads them on camera, one is dealing with something quite different than, say, the FSLN in Nicaragua prior to the revolution (or the Contras after the revolution) or the FMLN in El Salvador during its civil war. In one case you have a very small group that is trying to create terror in the population, in another you have an army that emerges to attempt to confront the state militarily. You know the old line, read the whole thing.
I dont remember bringing up Vietnam, or Cambodia, or US support of Israel. I thought we were talking about dealing with the root causes of our current War on Terror…
I’m more concerned with where the terrorists come from, and why people buy into their bullshit. What can we do in the future to lessen the chances that we will have do deal with terrorists? What past mistakes, by us or others, can we learn from?
And by the way, motives are never an element of any crime.
What? That doesnt make any sense.
Are you telling me that police dont investigate motives when trying to solve a murder?
Anyway, we know their motives. Their motives are not, have never been, and will never be, valid.
I’m not trying to determine how valid they are, I’m trying to look at what may have influenced their thinking, and motivated them to commit such crimes. Alot of people are buying into the bullshit, and it may help to understand what fuels that belief.
Investigating Ted Bundy’s motives in no way justifies his actions. The question is, what helped to create such a killer, and how can we do something to avoid the same thing from happening again? What were the situations or signs that should have been noticed? Can we do something about that?
Is that so bad? And you did make a big jump and take the argument somewhere that I had no plans of going.
I dont remember bringing up Vietnam, or Cambodia, or US support of Israel. I thought we were talking about dealing with the root causes of our current War on Terror…
Exactly what do you think dealing with the root causes of terrorism means? It means all US presence out of the Mideast and no support for Israel. What do you think would happen if we pulled out of Iraq? A bloodbath? That is exactly what happened when we pulled out of SE Asia.
I’m more concerned with where the terrorists come from, and why people buy into their bullshit. What can we do in the future to lessen the chances that we will have do deal with terrorists? What past mistakes, by us or others, can we learn from?
Lack of democracy? Lack of human rights? Lack of good government? Just about everything we take for granted. As far as our mistakes: rolling over for every act of terrorism perpetrated against us for the past 40 years. We need to stop pretending the corrupt, murdering Palestinian Authority ever wants peace with Israel.
And by the way, motives are never an element of any crime.
What? That doesnt make any sense.
Are you telling me that police dont investigate motives when trying to solve a murder?
It is not an element that the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt in order for a jury to convict.
I’m not trying to determine how valid they are, I’m trying to look at what may have influenced their thinking, and motivated them to commit such crimes. Alot of people are buying into the bullshit, and it may help to understand what fuels that belief.
Don’t you think the easiest way is to ask the terrorists? Don’t you think people already have? And do you know what their answers are: Because of the US presense in the mideast, b/c of our support of Israel, b/c they want the destruction of Israel, b/c they want to convert the entire world to Islam, and then they want to kill us. — But, conversion first! 🙂 Can’t be more specific than that, can you?
Investigating Ted Bundy’s motives in no way justifies his actions. The question is, what helped to create such a killer, and how can we do something to avoid the same thing from happening again? What were the situations or signs that should have been noticed? Can we do something about that?
Some people can never be cured. The only treatment is locking them away for life or executing them. Sometimes the only thing you can do about it, is recognizing nothing can be done about it. That is certainly the prevailing thought. As applied to the mideast, kill or imprison as many terrorists as possible and introduce democracy into the region.
Is that so bad?
It is if it interferes with the protection of the public.
And you did make a big jump and take the argument somewhere that I had no plans of going.
You may had no plans of going there, but that is where phrases like understanding the root causes of terrorism ultimately leads you. Why? Because history tells us so.
“Exactly what do you think dealing with the root causes of terrorism means? It means all US presence out of the Mideast and no support for Israel. What do you think would happen if we pulled out of Iraq? A bloodbath?”
Dealing with the root causes of terrorism means that we work to try to eliminate the situations and conditions in which terrorism arises…at least as much as we can.
Certainly our goal isnt to stay in the Middle East forever, is it? I am not talking about just picking up and leaving Iraq right now.
Israel: I guess you want to talk about that. I havent said that I think the US needs to stop supporting Israel. Two groups are laying claim to the same land, and arguably they both have some rights. Something will have to be worked out, but I dont know how a single state would pan out.
Whats your opinion about the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories? And by the way I am not on one “side” or the other in that debate.
[causes of terrorism, past mistakes]”Lack of democracy? Lack of human rights? Lack of good government? Just about everything we take for granted. As far as our mistakes: rolling over for every act of terrorism perpetrated against us for the past 40 years.”
Of course the lack of democracy, human rights, and good government is a large factor.
Mistakes: I’m going to add something even if you get mad at me. We cant align ourselves or support oppressive regimes/groups. It has come back to haunt us time and again. We should have been more careful in Afghanistan in the early 80’s with who we armed against the Soviets. We armed the best killers we could find, and that got out of control (Taliban). We supported Hussein against Iran (regardless of what he was doing at the time in his country), and that came back to bite us. We cant profess to be all about democracy and freedom while we support such types. We did the same in Nicaragua, the same in Guatemala. No more supporting dictatorships. I dont like knowing we have done that, but it happened. We cant change what we did then, but we can avoid doing it again.
Today we support the regime in Saudi Arabia, and I’m wondering when that is going to haunt us, or if its not part of the problem right now. We cant be buddies with those governments while they do what they do to their people. Do you disagree?