I heard that WLS-TV was a part of the investigation. If so, would it be considered unethical for me to release dirt that others accumulated on their general manager Emily Barr?
PeterJune 26, 2004
Well, Ryan is out of the race, mission accomplished for the media.
Still, there’s something seriously wrong about putting out allegations in a custody fight as fact. If we had actual teeth in the laws, half the divorce lawyers would be disbarred for subborning perjury.
Sorry Jay, but I still find it incredibly hypocritical that conservatives hung on every detail of the Lewinski/Clinton affair and are yet outraged over this one. And please dont insult my intelligence by “It wasnt the sex, it was the lies under oath,” thing. Becuase if that was the case, all of the DETAILS of Clinton’s tryst would not have become national news.
Yeah they were different acts, but I see little difference MORALY, between cheating on your wife, therefore humiliating her, and trying to pressure your wife into being a swinger, when she does not want to.
Both Clinton and Ryan stink for doing what they did. I agree with you in the sense that I dont think it should have been made public, or become part of the political debate, but I dont think Clinton’s Blowjob follies should have either.
Jay TeaJune 26, 2004
One HUGE difference, David. What the Ryans did was strictly between them in a (relatively) private place, on their own time. What Clinton did was, by laws he himself signed, arguably sexual harassment of the grossest sort (based on the power imbalance between an intern and the Chief Executve of the Executive branch of the government), done on OUR time, and done IN the Oval Office. That’s what makes it our business.
Had Clinton conducted his “relationship” with Ms. Lewinski’s mouth and tongue outside regular office hours and outside the office, and she were not employed by him (even as an intern), that would have been different entirely. But he didnt.
Ronald Reagan never took his coat off in the Oval Office. George W. Bush is following that example. Bill Clinton read it as the “Oral Orifice” and couldn’t keep his pants up in it. I think that’s all need be said.
You’re all wet, David. The fact that all the details of Clinton’s sexcapades is inevitable. If information is available, it will be disseminated. That’s the nature of modern media, Republicans or no.
The Ryan story is a perfect example of this. This story appears to be almost entirely media driven, not politically driven.
Also, as for the sex aspect of this, if you really think there’s no difference between repeatedly cheating on your spouse, and making sexual requests of your spouse that she declines, well, then I guess that’s between you and your wife.
On the other hand — and this is partially addressed to Peter, too — it seems highly likely that the allegations against Ryan are mostly true. He issued a pretty Clintonian denial back at the time of the divorce, and has been kind of weaseling around the issue ever since by claiming, “I addressed this a long time ago,” when he really hasn’t. For the record, Jeri Ryan (who supports her ex) still maintains that her charges were true. Jack has kind of danced around the issue without really addressing it.
If so, ironically, this actually does make the case quite similar to Clinton’s, because there is an argument that Jack Ryan lied under oath in his filings in the divorce case. That’s getting lost in much of the awful media coverage.
As for Republicans being hypocritical about this, they’re not. Actually, the early polls about this, and virtually all of the letters to the editors in the Illinois papers (by about a 10-to-1 margin), think that this sex scandal shouldn’t affect Ryan’s race. What did him in, though, was that he apparently lied to party leaders. When this divorce file issue first surfaced months ago, Ryan went to all of them (Edgar, Topinka, Hastert, etc.) and asured them that there was nothing even potentially embarassing in his files, and that the only secret stuff in the files pertained to details about his special-needs son. That was a lie. The party leaders felt betrayed (legitimately so), and that’s why they’ve abandoned Ryan.
I think I said, that both acts were pretty disgusting, and pressuring your wife to have sex in swing clubs may not be illegal, but in my eyes it is equally or worse on the morality scale than having consensual sex with someone, nonwithstanding the effects on Clintons own marriage which was JUST as private as the relationship issues the Ryans obviously suffered.
David, you are deliberately trying to steer the argument by using inaccurate and misleading language, and I’m calling you on it. Nowhere in the divorce documents, based on news reports, did it say that Ryan “pressured” his wife to have sex in swing clubs. He tried to make that happen, but when she resisted, he backed off.
And the fact that you find Ryan’s actions, even as you portrayed them, as “worse on the morality scale” than having adulterous sex indicates that you don’t share my morals on the subject, at least.
Hmmmm Boyd my friend, I think you are misunderstanding my words. I said equal or worse, a strictly subjective standard I will admit. But the pressuring part you are DEAD wrong on. The reports indicated that AFTER Ryan promised his wife that he would not do the sex club thing again, he took her to a club in Paris and tried again. But there is a bigger point here in my mind, and that is that Sex is sex. Its natural most of us do it. I would not eliminate Ryan for his kinkiness, and I thought the whole thing with Clinton bordered on ridiculous. I said at the time and I will say it again, the only person who could fire Clinton for what he did was Hillary. She didnt, so why should I give a rats a**.
As for Ryan, apparently 7of9 DID fire him. So that part of his life is behind him. I think it was cowardly of him to lie about what happened, and likewise I think it was cowardly of Clinton. Personally I would have said “Its none of your damned business.”
We are not going to agree on this one, but I thought I owed you at least an answer.
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…aforementioned adolescents (of all ages) now ecstatically picturing
I heard that WLS-TV was a part of the investigation. If so, would it be considered unethical for me to release dirt that others accumulated on their general manager Emily Barr?
Well, Ryan is out of the race, mission accomplished for the media.
Still, there’s something seriously wrong about putting out allegations in a custody fight as fact. If we had actual teeth in the laws, half the divorce lawyers would be disbarred for subborning perjury.
Sorry Jay, but I still find it incredibly hypocritical that conservatives hung on every detail of the Lewinski/Clinton affair and are yet outraged over this one. And please dont insult my intelligence by “It wasnt the sex, it was the lies under oath,” thing. Becuase if that was the case, all of the DETAILS of Clinton’s tryst would not have become national news.
Yeah they were different acts, but I see little difference MORALY, between cheating on your wife, therefore humiliating her, and trying to pressure your wife into being a swinger, when she does not want to.
Both Clinton and Ryan stink for doing what they did. I agree with you in the sense that I dont think it should have been made public, or become part of the political debate, but I dont think Clinton’s Blowjob follies should have either.
One HUGE difference, David. What the Ryans did was strictly between them in a (relatively) private place, on their own time. What Clinton did was, by laws he himself signed, arguably sexual harassment of the grossest sort (based on the power imbalance between an intern and the Chief Executve of the Executive branch of the government), done on OUR time, and done IN the Oval Office. That’s what makes it our business.
Had Clinton conducted his “relationship” with Ms. Lewinski’s mouth and tongue outside regular office hours and outside the office, and she were not employed by him (even as an intern), that would have been different entirely. But he didnt.
Ronald Reagan never took his coat off in the Oval Office. George W. Bush is following that example. Bill Clinton read it as the “Oral Orifice” and couldn’t keep his pants up in it. I think that’s all need be said.
You’re all wet, David. The fact that all the details of Clinton’s sexcapades is inevitable. If information is available, it will be disseminated. That’s the nature of modern media, Republicans or no.
The Ryan story is a perfect example of this. This story appears to be almost entirely media driven, not politically driven.
Also, as for the sex aspect of this, if you really think there’s no difference between repeatedly cheating on your spouse, and making sexual requests of your spouse that she declines, well, then I guess that’s between you and your wife.
On the other hand — and this is partially addressed to Peter, too — it seems highly likely that the allegations against Ryan are mostly true. He issued a pretty Clintonian denial back at the time of the divorce, and has been kind of weaseling around the issue ever since by claiming, “I addressed this a long time ago,” when he really hasn’t. For the record, Jeri Ryan (who supports her ex) still maintains that her charges were true. Jack has kind of danced around the issue without really addressing it.
If so, ironically, this actually does make the case quite similar to Clinton’s, because there is an argument that Jack Ryan lied under oath in his filings in the divorce case. That’s getting lost in much of the awful media coverage.
As for Republicans being hypocritical about this, they’re not. Actually, the early polls about this, and virtually all of the letters to the editors in the Illinois papers (by about a 10-to-1 margin), think that this sex scandal shouldn’t affect Ryan’s race. What did him in, though, was that he apparently lied to party leaders. When this divorce file issue first surfaced months ago, Ryan went to all of them (Edgar, Topinka, Hastert, etc.) and asured them that there was nothing even potentially embarassing in his files, and that the only secret stuff in the files pertained to details about his special-needs son. That was a lie. The party leaders felt betrayed (legitimately so), and that’s why they’ve abandoned Ryan.
I think I said, that both acts were pretty disgusting, and pressuring your wife to have sex in swing clubs may not be illegal, but in my eyes it is equally or worse on the morality scale than having consensual sex with someone, nonwithstanding the effects on Clintons own marriage which was JUST as private as the relationship issues the Ryans obviously suffered.
David, you are deliberately trying to steer the argument by using inaccurate and misleading language, and I’m calling you on it. Nowhere in the divorce documents, based on news reports, did it say that Ryan “pressured” his wife to have sex in swing clubs. He tried to make that happen, but when she resisted, he backed off.
And the fact that you find Ryan’s actions, even as you portrayed them, as “worse on the morality scale” than having adulterous sex indicates that you don’t share my morals on the subject, at least.
Hmmmm Boyd my friend, I think you are misunderstanding my words. I said equal or worse, a strictly subjective standard I will admit. But the pressuring part you are DEAD wrong on. The reports indicated that AFTER Ryan promised his wife that he would not do the sex club thing again, he took her to a club in Paris and tried again. But there is a bigger point here in my mind, and that is that Sex is sex. Its natural most of us do it. I would not eliminate Ryan for his kinkiness, and I thought the whole thing with Clinton bordered on ridiculous. I said at the time and I will say it again, the only person who could fire Clinton for what he did was Hillary. She didnt, so why should I give a rats a**.
As for Ryan, apparently 7of9 DID fire him. So that part of his life is behind him. I think it was cowardly of him to lie about what happened, and likewise I think it was cowardly of Clinton. Personally I would have said “Its none of your damned business.”
We are not going to agree on this one, but I thought I owed you at least an answer.