If Arizona didn't make being in the US illegally a crime this never would have happened.

Actually, the proves that no matter what the laws are there will still be criminals.

Laws don't stop criminal activity.

So it's possible an assault weapon ban might not have prevented a person willing to commit capital murder from obtaining an AK-47?

This is going to get interesting...

No, Lee. This proves that no matter what, the illegals have no regard for the law...period. That's exactly why they need to remain on their side of the border.

My solution is concerned citizens taking up arms to do a little impromtu border watching.

I see the stupidity of Lee Ward is back. Good to hear from you Lee, sadly you have not learned a fu*king thing. Still the same leftist BS.

As I used to tell my trainee's, "There is no such thing as a ROUTINE traffic stop."

They're just shooting the cops that Americans don't want to shoot.

Let see this is high traffic for illegal aliens who traffic in humans and drugs. So we have people who break multiple laws shooting a police officer and it all because of a Law that has not gone into effect?

We have drug gangs invading the state, kidnapping occurring at the highest rate in the country and your response Lee Ward is to pretend it does not occur?

"If Arizona didn't make being in the US illegally a crime this never would have happened."

Gee maybe Arizona ought to take the following crimes off the books so that they wont happen again.

rape
murder
robbery
assault
drug selling
child pornography.
etc
etc
etc

See that. If there are no laws than there is no crime.

Thanks Baron for giving us the answer to all the crime problems in the world. Just do away with all the laws.

Funny, I thought it was supposed to be the racist white supremacist Tea Party types who would be driven to violence over the immigration issue, not a peaceful, long-suffering alien who just wants to make a better life for himself and his family here in America.

First of all, how do we tell the difference between people who are involved in the drug trade, and people who are coming here to find work? To me this question matters. While many people could care less about the differences, I think it makes sense to look a little closer and try to differentiate these people. Immigrants are not just one monolithic block of people.

Second, there is definitely a need to deal with the border issue. This is obviously a serious problem that needs more than just rhetorical posturing from the Dems or Republicans.

It is absolutely NOT a good thing to have this many people entering the country illegally. Obviously, Americans are hiring people to do plenty of jobs, so there is a demand. What this means is that we have to find a way to adjust our system to meet that need in an efficient and fair way. We need to find a way to reform the way that our system works, not only to be more efficient, but also to avoid creating the situation where we have people crossing in these extremely dangerous conditions (often in the deserts like AZ). The current situation is bad on various levels.

So yes, we need to deal with immigration. But this does not mean that we need to forgo human rights in the process, unless our ideals about basic human rights stop at our national borders.

Third, the drug cartels and smugglers are a critical part of the problem. And they have considerable power in Mexico AND the US. Don't forget the fact that Americans are most definitely involved in this business. So this means that both Mexicans AND Americans are part of the problem, on many levels. Who do you think sells the stuff here? The problem is not just something that Mexico has brought to the US. Don't kid yourself into thinking that this is just some EXTERNAL issue. It's not. The problem extends across national borders, so will most likely have to be dealt with across national borders. This means that we have to address the American aspect of the problem (drug trade and demand) and that the Mexican State will have to deal with their aspect (production and smuggling). This might actually require some collaboration.

Fourth, the American demand for the drugs that these cartels supply is another serious problem. It's not as if the buyers and distributors of these drugs are somehow any less complicit than the people who smuggle the shit in here. Any real solution will have to take a hard look at the fact that the demand is fueling the supply. If we don't pay attention to these factors, then we aren't really trying to solve the issue. Putting up fences certainly doesn't do a damn thing about the incredible demand for drugs (and the exorbitant amount of money that fuels the drug and arms trade that keeps cartels in business).

Last, we also have to look at some of the larger factors that are fostering other types of immigration to the US. There are reasons why we have so many people coming here from the poor parts of southern Mexico. And demonizing these people isn't going to really help address the bigger issues. A lot of people who migrate here put themselves through hell not because they want to, but because they are trying to help their families survive. Kind of like my German relatives who migrated here from a decimated homeland in the early 1700s. Migration is by no means a recent invention. Sometimes it's good to keep this in mind.

Um... I believe the Baron was being sarcastic. I picked up on it right away, but it looks like you hooked a couple of live ones, colleague o' mine...

J.

Jay Tea,

The Baron? Sarcastic? Really?

"According to this 12News report, the suspect was believed to be an illegal immigrant:"

Lee Ward, wheres your id?

But this does not mean that we need to forgo human rights in the process, unless our ideals about basic human rights stop at our national borders.

re: 13

He didn't hook them. They hit themselves with a monkey wrench.

Lee WARD of the state. Google Search " we b gone come vember"...

ACE HOLE

"That's more than can be said of the coyotes and drug runners, who make a buisness violating the basic human rights of American citizens."

...and what about the Americans who are part of the drug running business? And the Americans who buy all of the drugs? Or are you so naive that you think that Americans aren't involved with this?

Where do you think the drugs are going? Do you think this is part of the problem?

"A fine statement that has nothing to do with the matter at hand as no side in the policy debate has suggested anything that can be remotely construed as forgoing human rights."

Except for comment #5 right? But armed vigilantes on the border...they are all on the up and up, right? No issues there.

...and what about the Americans who are part of the drug running business?

Except for comment #5 right?

Now, if #5 stated that they should be shooting people on sight, that's an issue. But, he didn't, and you're still an idiot.

The arresting of illegal aliens isn't tolerated but the shooting of Sheriff's Deputies is.

Also, you need to learn the definition of vigilantism. Here's a hint: it is not a response to a crime IN PROGRESS.

"And what about the price of tea in China? What about the moon landing? What happened to JR? What about your inability to stay on topic?"

If you're going to bring up drug runners, then you're going to have to realize that the drug running business cuts across the border. Americans are most definitely involved. Or do you think that somehow all of these drugs are sold and distributed here in the US by Mexican cartels?

"Now, if #5 stated that they should be shooting people on sight, that's an issue. But, he didn't, and you're still an idiot."

First of all, you can drop the 5th grade name-calling bullshit. I could care less.

Second, plenty of people preach some pretty nasty stuff about immigrants. Don't play stupid with me. Or do you think the Minutemen are just down there preaching about love and understanding?

"Also, you need to learn the definition of vigilantism. Here's a hint: it is not a response to a crime IN PROGRESS."

So are you advocating the idea of having vigilantes who roam the country taking care of American drug runners as well, or should we leave that to the DEA and other trained officers of the law???

"The arresting of illegal aliens isn't tolerated but the shooting of Sheriff's Deputies is."

Who said that this shooting is tolerated? Clearly, it is not. Don't make this issue into a stupid partisan pissing match. Try to stay away from the TV version and look a little deeper.

If you're going to bring up drug runners, then you're going to have to realize that the drug running business cuts across the border.

Second, plenty of people preach some pretty nasty stuff about immigrants. Don't play stupid with me.

Yes, people do preach some pretty nasty stuff. But you don't find that stuff in the policy debate. I limited it that way because there are nuts on ALL TOPICS, and we don't go around saying "Now, if you're baking cookies for children, it's important to realize that children have rights and should not have arsenic added to their delicious treats." I know it's fun for you to pretend that such a thing is mainstream enough that you must remind us neanderthals not to slip into it, but you're still a tool for doing so.

And I will insult you all day long, and unlike you, I'll be upfront about calling you a mentally damaged circus freak with the moral discernment of an empty pickle jar. It's more honest that way.

So are you advocating the idea of having vigilantes who roam the country taking care of American drug runners as well, or should we leave that to the DEA and other trained officers of the law???

Ryan A.

First of all, how do we tell the difference between people who are involved in the drug trade, and people who are coming here to find work? To me this question matters. While many people could care less about the differences, I think it makes sense to look a little closer and try to differentiate these people. Immigrants are not just one monolithic block of people.

First Let be honest and break this down into illegal and Legal immigration. If you want to immigrate to the USA. You have to go through a police background and and international Law Enforcement process. You are also subject to medical examinations. After this is complete we need to verify that you have some skills that are in domain if your applying for a non resident Visa like an H-1 or you have secured employment and have sponsor for a work visa. There is also a finical check on your sponsor if you are marring someone.

Now if your illegal none of this is done. This why illegal immigration need to be curtailed because that undocumented part is black hole. That does not allow one to see who would be decent law abiding citizens and who would be crooks. Also the human traffickers who bring these people in can sometimes have them pay for their fee in various ways most of it illegal.

So yes, we need to deal with immigration. But this does not mean that we need to forgo human rights in the process, unless our ideals about basic human rights stop at our national borders.

What Human rights are being violated?
In what way is the Arizona Law a violation of Human Rights?
What actions did the Police officer take that Violated the Human Rights of the suspect?

What Human rights are being violated?

There is, of course, no basic human right to offend the sensibilities of a bleeding-heart liberal. Because that would be WRONG.

Deputy was shot by an AK-47... his wound his superficial.

JSchuler,

"And if you're going to bring up running, you should know that Usain Bolt holds the world record in the 100 meter at 9.58 seconds. This is fun, what else can we bring in?"

The point here is that the drug trade is not limited to the Mexican side. This is a pretty clear point, yet for some reason you think it's cute to sidestep actually addressing that point with your little quips.

"Yes, people do preach some pretty nasty stuff. But you don't find that stuff in the policy debate...I know it's fun for you to pretend that such a thing is mainstream enough that you must remind us neanderthals not to slip into it, but you're still a tool for doing so."

I just made a general statement about human rights, and you are reading a lot into it. I said that we have to deal with these issues without forgetting about our basic notions of human rights. This applies to all sides, and was not directed at YOU specifically.

The difficult part about this whole immigration thing is that we have to find ways to deal with our borders while still maintaining a system that is human, just, AND efficient. Don't take that as meaning that I am saying you or anyone on your "side" is being unjust. There are, however, people who are pretty racist and extremist when it comes to immigration. But this does not mean that they are part of the policy debate. It does mean they are part of the overall problem, IMO.

"And I will insult you all day long, and unlike you, I'll be upfront about calling you a mentally damaged circus freak with the moral discernment of an empty pickle jar. It's more honest that way."

Ok. You can say whatever you want. It's not like I really give a damn what insults some person feels compelled to post on a blog. Ad hominem insults just show weakness and don't address the issue at hand, so sure, keep it up. I'm not here to play those little games, but if it makes you feel empowered, go for it.

"I'm sorry, you can find the word "Vigilante" in the dictionary under "V." They alphabetize those now."

From American Heritage:

vig·i·lan·te (vĭj'ə-lān'tē)
n.

1. One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.
2. A member of a vigilance committee.

So, let me ask you one more time. Are you arguing that we should have people taking the law into their own hands and dealing with these issues?

NOTE: Try to stick to the issues here, if you can. I can understand the fact that you might disagree with me. I can understand the fact that you might think that my points are off topic or off target. Fine. Go ahead and say that, and leave all the BS out of it. I can absolutely respect disagreement. Can you?

So, ryan a, a fundamental question: just what human right is being violated by allowing state and local law enforcement authorities to enforce the law regarding illegal immigration?

More specifically, what "right" is infringed not by the underlying law, but the expansion of who can enforce it?

J.

hcddbz,

"Now if your illegal none of this is done. This why illegal immigration need to be curtailed because that undocumented part is black hole. That does not allow one to see who would be decent law abiding citizens and who would be crooks."

Absolutely. I agree with you that illegal immigration needs to be curtailed. If we have all of these people coming across the border in remote regions, then it creates several problems. First, there is no way to separate the criminals from those who are coming here to work, as you say. And second it creates unbelievably dangerous situations for many of the migrants themselves, who are subjected to robbery, rape, abuse, and corruption. We are in total agreement about this.

"Also the human traffickers who bring these people in can sometimes have them pay for their fee in various ways most of it illegal."

Ya, it's all called extortion. Another part of the problem is the way in which these smugglers exploit people who are trying to cross the border. Sometimes people pay and then get robbed. Sometimes they pay and then get left in the middle of the desert.

Good points, hcbbdz.

"What Human rights are being violated?"

Look, that was a general statement about some of the difficulties of the immigration issue. We need to find a way to deal with this problem while still sticking to the rule of law.

There are human rights violations all across the board, and on both sides of the border. When we have people being exploited by smugglers, that's a problem. When we have people dying out in the desert, that's another problem. When we have armed citizens out policing the border, that's another problem. When we have undocumented populations here working under the radar, and often in substandard conditions, we have human rights issue, IMO. They are all across the board.

"In what way is the Arizona Law a violation of Human Rights?"

You can disagree with me, but I think that the AZ law opens the door for plenty of violations--of US citizens who "look" like they could be here illegally. The wording of the law is pretty terrible. There is nothing illegal about speaking Spanish, about being of Mexican or Latino descent, or walking around without ID. Yet, under this law, people who are suspected of being illegal can be detained if they don't have the proper documentation. Do you think that all Americans should walk around with ID at all times? Should we all be subject to questioning and detainment if we leave the house without our documents? I think it's a poorly conceived way of dealing with this issue.

"What actions did the Police officer take that Violated the Human Rights of the suspect?"

Probably none. This sounds like it was a case of armed drug smugglers. I never said that this officer did anything wrong. This is the really tough part--ICE agents have to deal with this stuff on the front lines, and have to find ways to differentiate armed smugglers from the migrants who are trying to come here to work. As long as our overall system is so inefficient and we have these large numbers of people crossing clandestinely, this problem is going to continue.

Jay Tea,

So, ryan a, a fundamental question: just what human right is being violated by allowing state and local law enforcement authorities to enforce the law regarding illegal immigration?

More specifically, what "right" is infringed not by the underlying law, but the expansion of who can enforce it?

Well, from my reading of all this, the law opens up the gate for profiling. I understand all of the arguments about "reasonable suspicion," but when it comes down to it, the wording of this thing is REALLY vague. It opens the gate for the profiling of US citizens who "look" illegal and do not have their ID on them at all times. This means that they can be detained, based upon reasonable suspicion, if they are just walking around without proper documents. I think this has the potential for all kinds of violations.

It's not illegal to speak Spanish, and it's not illegal to be of Mexican or Latino descent. Targeting anyone and everyone who appears to be illegal, well, that's just a disaster waiting to happen. Especially considering the substantial population that is of Latino descent--and anyone else who just might appear illegal.

Do YOU think this law is a good idea? I completely agree with anyone who thinks that our immigration system needs a lot of changes, but I do not think this AZ law is leading in the right direction, at all.

As for the second part of your question, I don't really think that expanding the enforcement is any kind of rights violation. While I don't necessarily think that's the best use of local police, I don't really see any problem with that part of it. The profiling part is where I see the real problem. It leaves a lot of room for very subjective enforcement. Looks like a disaster waiting to happen, if you ask me.

McGeHee,

"Why, the human right to ignore the plainly stated, duly enacted laws of the United States of America, that's what."

US laws are being broken on all sides of this. If we are talking about the drug trade, there are violations that occur at the border AND within our borders. This is not just some external problem that Mexico is imposing upon us. There are plenty of Americans who are involved in the drug trade (breaking US laws) that are part of this problem. There are also TONS of Americans who buy TONS of drugs that end up lining the pockets of cartels. This is why they are so damn powerful and well armed. We supply the funds day in and day out.

Along with the whole drug trade, we have people coming across to find work. Obviously, they are getting jobs, so there is some kind of demand. Yes, they are breaking the law, and this needs to be dealt with. But we also have to take another look at how our system works. If there are people who want to come here to work, then we need to have a just, fair, AND efficient system that meets that need. Our current system is hardly efficient, and that's part of the reason why we have so many people going around it. They are willing to risk detention and deportation for the chance to make 10 times the amount of money they would in their home countries (if not more).

Ryan, was I talking to you?

McGehee,

"Ryan, was I talking to you?"

I don't know McGehee, were you? Does it upset you that I responded to your comment? If so, feel free to pass by my response, since you can certainly have self-determination.

Here is an interesting link on the 14th amendment.
http://www.14thamendment.us/birthright_citizenship/original_intent.html

Hence Arizona was forcing the federal government to adhere to US constitution rules

There are processes for illegal migrants to become US citizens and workers in the US

If only Congress would publish a current list of all the laws that are supposed to be enforced and which ones aren't.

It would make things so much easier for all of us, even if it was changed once a week. They could publish it on the web, and include "Today's Special" to coincide with Obama's topic for the day, and maybe defray the cost by selling advertising space. You know, stuff like "Congratulations! You've won our hourly prize! Click the OK button to claim it before time runs out!", or "Geico. It's the bee's knees."

profiling part is where I see the real problem

1. Why must we assume that the federal government does everything correct and local law enforcement are a bunch of morons.

2. Profiling is good thing in law enforcement. Though we do not like to admit it certain things match and do not match in certain areas.
What most people really mean when they talk about profiling is harassment.
As an example. In Newark NJ there are areas where you have a high degree of drug trade. These areas are majority black and poor.
If it 2 AM and you see a 4 white students driving slow you their is high probability that they are in the area to buy drugs.

In the same area if you see two black men driving around 100k car with some blue head bands they might not part of the salvation army.

The law as written address possible abuse and provides legal remedies for reporting them.

Though we have many illegal Mexican immigrants we also have an increase of OTM.

Also DUE PROCESS is being observed.

Finally the law is explicit that you not walking around asking people for papers. They are getting the information in response to a lawful act. Many years ago this was common practice. It was the LA Police department that stopped the practice by a memo and the concept spread.

Along with the whole drug trade, we have people coming across to find work. Obviously, they are getting jobs, so there is some kind of demand. Yes, they are breaking the law, and this needs to be dealt with. But we also have to take another look at how our system works. If there are people who want to come here to work, then we need to have a just, fair, AND efficient system that meets that need. Our current system is hardly efficient, and that's part of the reason why we have so many people going around it. They are willing to risk detention and deportation for the chance to make 10 times the amount of money they would in their home countries (if not more).

RYAN a,

am going to vent.
The jobs thing is BS. There are multiple was to come into the US legally. From the age of 15-17 my mother and I ran a small employment services specializing in live in house keepers and nannies. We would work with couples and sponsor people from Latin America and the West indies. The process took about 3 months then and thy were in the us legal and paying taxes. Later we worked with companies for H-1 visa a little more complicated and longer but both these programs work. So people have the chance to do the right thing.

We also followed up on the people we brought over for 6 months. A few people thought they had gotten slaves in those cases since we had legal process they had a voice and a means of redress.

Many people who like Illegal immigrants like them because they pay them substandard wages and they pay them off the books so that they are not liable for payroll and other taxes. It is a system that further takes advantage of these people. it is modern day institutionalized serfdom.

These practices undercut American citizens and legal immigrants.

One should prove they are here legally to obtain documents such as driver licensee which btw is the papers that the police are asking to see.