The misguided musings from the Good Intentions Paving Co., of which your friend is a spokesman.

Michael, "well educated" does not mean that he possesses any "intelligence". I especially like the comment: "It is not possible to live a dignified human life without access to adequate health care." This guy has his head buried so far up his ass, I'm surprised he can still breathe.

"It is not possible to live a dignified human life without access to adequate health care."

Well, there went 90% of the human race that ever lived. So sad that all those billions lacked dignity.

This gentleman is like Prez Barry, sound and fury signifying nothing.

One of the reasons we spend so much on healthcare is that WE CAN! We live in a country that provides amazing healthcare products that consumers need and/or want to buy. Many of these things are elective procedues that improve our quality of life in ways that would astound and make envious previous generations of Americans. Our healthcare system, while imperfect, is great because it still operates somewhat on capitalism. Americans still have the freedom to choose where they spend their money and many are choosing healthcare. Do we spend too much? Probably, but there are many ways we can cut costs witout Obamacare's sinister big-government power grab.
We provide a "safety net" in this country and EVERYONE can receive healthcare who needs it. It may not be simple to do sometimes but there is care available to all. Also, many doctors give countless hours of charitable time already to our healthcare system.
There is no such animal as a CHRISTIAN PROGRESSIVE. Progressivism, by its very nature, is anti-CHRIST. Jesus taught HIS followers to be self-sufficient and to help others to become self-sufficient. He also taught us to be compassionate and help those who could not help themselves. He did NOT intend for government to be the source of this compassion. Free will is a paramount tenet of Christianity. Big government control of our lives is most definitely anti-Christ in the extreme.

There is an arrogance inherent in your friends messages. He notes that few humans that have come before or alive today have live in dignity. In order to provide this "right", others must loose their rights. Health care providers will have fewer rights. Will we still have the same quality of providers in the future given that they have to agree to surrender their rights? The answer to why costs have gone up is simple. When a good is free, more of it is consumed. Medicade and Medicare increased the price of health care. This program will do the same.

The stupidity of the process is that it has been focused on price not cost. Insurance pays the price of health care. Health care providers incure the costs. If the price is not equal or grate than the costs, you get General Motors. Is Walgreens vindictive when they cut off medicare patients in Washington? No, they just refuse to go out of business for the sake of an insane government program.

Health care, like all markets obeys the laws of supply and demand. Increase the demand the the supply will dwindle and prices will go up. We are not increasing doctors, bringing new cures to market faster, eliminating the cost of excessive lawsuits or any such thing. This bill is aweful. If we first focused on cost containment, then we could focus on providing greater services. Never works the other way around. The quality of our health care will resemble the quality of government provided cheese. Bon appetite.

Everyone who drags out a slacker who doesn't have health care can find out the slackers have the best health care in the country and it cost them pennies per month. It's called medicaid.
Maybe if people like pigloshi didn't spend so much trying to make a 70 year old body look like a 30 year old the amount spent on medical care wouldn't be so huge. I've got news for her, she looks like crap and there's no help for her. How many billions is spent on elective abortion while thousands are adopting from overseas. Only makes sense to a democrat so more needs to be spent on confinement of democrats for mental health treatment.
The idiot POTUS has ruined both medicaid and medicare with his pie in the sky ideas. Dr's will no longer accept either in most areas and try and get your medications on either of them. Good luck if you are a new customer at a drug store.

A few years ago, one of my neighbors had a heart attack. She was relatively young, never exercised, was overweight, and came from a family with a history of heart problems. She was in a low-paying job (working for a local alt-lifestyle magazine/website), and had zero health insurance and no extra money.

She got multiple bypass surgery, and years of followup treatment. She griped about how much paperwork and how much government BS she had to go through to get Medicaid to pay for it... but it did.

She was complaining about it one night, and I couldn't resist mentioning that now that the government paid for her treatment, she wants everyone else in the country to have the same coverage. Her eyes lit up, and she said, "Yes! Exactly!"

"So you want the rest of us to go through the same horrible BS you went through last year? You hated it, and I got months of lectures about how horrible the government bureaucracy was... do you honestly think it's going to get better when they make the bureaucracy ten times bigger, with no competition...?"

Cirby, I can tell your friend had no answer to your question. My guess is she then changed the subject to George W. Bush.

You can't get a liberal to consider evidence against one of their cherished beliefs. Their belief is more important to them than any mere facts.

Your friend redefines the word "justice," then argues based on the redefinition. Justice means applying the rules of society and law equally. Universal health care fails in this in that it forces some, without choice and under penalty of law, to pay for others.

This is not "reform". It is takeover pure and simple. My TV has been off two days now because each time I turn it on I hear the same old refrain "and Bush did it too". If this bill passes we will have become a Socialist country no better than Venezuela or Cuba and the Democratic party will have become the Socialist party.

Why should anyone have to pay for food or clothing? Aren't these things the most basic of human rights? Did not Jesus say to feed the hungry and clothe the naked? It is the evil corporations that drive up the cost of these goods with branding. Why do we need 20 different brands of corn flakes? The government should take over these industries in order to consolidate them. We could save billions! Why can't they see, God? Why? Let the government help!

So, Mr Laprairie, you post 4 snippets from a friend in favor of healthcare reform, and by disposing of those 4 snippets you imagine that you have refuted "the liberal argument?"

At the very least, you should invite your (imaginary?) friend to post a long piece here and THEN try to answer him.

That's only, of course, if you want a fair debate. If you just want to declare victory, by all means, let matters rest.

"That's only, of course, if you want a fair debate. If you just want to declare victory, by all means, let matters rest."

No Bruce, we want to debate just like Barry, BEHIND CLOSED FUCKIN DOORS!! There is no argument that you are wrong.

I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but your friend is an idiot. Well-educated, whatever THAT means, but an idiot. Here's a good summation as to why:

http://pajamasmedia.com/zombie/2010/03/20/why-america-hates-universal-health-care-the-real-reason/

actually, burcie, those 4 "snippets" ARE the ObamaCare.

- Health Care costs are rising
- Health Care is a RIGHT!
- A mythical number are losing their Health Care EVERY DAY!!
- It's unfair that some have it and some don't...and un-charitable

And so they craft a MASSIVE restructuring of America:
- adding MASSIVE costs to through endless government agencies
- inventing a new "Right!" out of thin air
- establishing Post-Office quality "health care"
- and ulitmately giving the Government unfettered access to EVERY aspect of ALL the financial and medical information on all Americans (except, of course, the ruling elite)

Welcome, Comrades, the People's Republik of Amerika. Work will set you free!

"It is not possible to live a dignified human life without access to adequate health care; therefore, health care reform is a human right"

A 'right' is something I have a right to, such as life and liberty.

This is the strongest moral argument the left has in the debate. If it is valid then logically, so is;

It is not possible to live a dignified human life without access to adequate food; therefore, food is a human 'right'.

It is not possible to live a dignified human life without access to shelter; therefore, shelter is a human right.

It is not possible to live a dignified human life without access to education; therefore, education is a human right.

It is not possible to live a dignified human life without access to an adequate job, that pays a comfortable living wage; therefore, having a job with good pay is a human right.

It is not possible to live a dignified human life without a high quality of life; therefore, a high quality of life is a human right.

Where does it end? It ends with more 'moochers' than producers and then the whole thing falls apart.

Why is that true? Human nature. If I have an unalienable 'right' to these things, then my very existence makes them my due. I don't have to do anything to earn it or maintain it, human dignity makes them my 'rights'.

Therefore that is true regardless of whether I work or not...after all, they're my 'rights', in which case, why should I work?

If it's my right to food, shelter, health care, education and a 'high quality of life'...as my 'right', I don't have to do anything to secure them, I have a right to them!

Here's the brutal truth progressives don't want to accept; the poor you will always have with you or we shall all be poor.

You see the point is that you have a right to life but not a dignified life.

People have a right to live. Dignity comes from how one bears the struggle one faces. I can be dirt poor but have great dignity. I can be an uber rich celebrity and have none. In fact hat dichotomy is often observed in real life.

Dignity is something you give yourself. It comes from inside. The fact that a lib would append the notion of dignity to a list of rights indicates that he thinks that it is something that is bestowed upon someone. That sleazy, drug addicted movie stars can go out and buy it (but somehow never seem to bother) but that janitors cannot afford.

That view is an elitist snobbish view and comes from contempt of those who have lower status, whether that be lower educational or financial or social status. It assumes that people of lower status have no dignity.

I have seen far more janitors with great dignity than I have seem university professors or wealthy businessmen, celebrities, or politicians. People who work for a living generally have dignity. It comes from pride in having accomplished something worthwhile. People who are idle all day generally have none, but spend their days criticizing those who have something to do.

He also taught us to be compassionate and help those who could not help themselves.

There is a big difference between 'could not' and 'would not'.

Dear God, Please let them [The US House of Representatives] be right for the sake of your justice. As you have said, one of the marks your true followers is that we saw someone sick, and we did our best to help heal them.

sigh.

'Dear God, Please let them [The US House of Representatives] be smarter than the tens of millions of people they supposedly represent that oppose what they are doing for the sake of your wish that socialism be the law of the land (as I understand is the case according to Minister Pelosi). As you have said, one of the marks your true followers is that we saw someone sick, and we did our best to force someone else to take care of them using the most inefficient methods known to man - except when they are too sick and not worth saving or when their treatment is not "cost effective".'

As you have said, one of the marks your true followers is that we saw someone sick, and we did our best to help heal them.

...... Your friend is a worthless idiot and an unserious Christian with more faith in idealogy than religion.

Otherwise he would know that passages like these refer to volunteerism, using our free will to do these things, not using the power of the state to coerce everyone into doing it.

Cut bait on this loser.

There are a cpl of points I'd like to make. (And hope you pass them along.)First, the claim it's "0allowed " to consume 16%. I tend not to tell people how to spend their money.As a doc, I'm often astonished by the underlieing assumption Americans have:I can be young forever- or at least a very long time. it requires no effort on my part. Just some pills.Maybe a litle Bo Tox or Viagra in 30 years or so.
Secondly, I doubt your friend is in one of the more intellectual weighted fields. These kinds of fuzzy statements don't inspire a rigorous approach to tough questions .

It seems your friend starts out every platitude by defining things the way he wants them to be. Well, I reject his definitions and insist that the "conversation" not begin until we *agree* on the definitions of such things as "justice."
It certainly isn't "justice" to take money from one person at gunpoint (i.e. taxes) to pay from someone else's care.

A right is something inherent (God-given, if you will) and doesn't require 2500 pages and thousands of new IRS agents to procure.

Don't they ever ask themselves why health care was allowed to consume so much of our economy?

"Allowed," he says. That's the nucleus of what we're up against, the idea that the spending decisions of every individual, and the investment decisions of every business small and large, are subject to being allowed by some central power with the moral authority to overrule anything Michael's liberal friend disagrees with.

Ultimately it comes down to the expectation that the morality such centralized decisionmaking will impose, will be the same as "mine," "me" in all cases being whichever liberal dupe is supporting totalitarianism at the moment.

It was in the futile hope of educating such idiots that Orwell wrote his two most famous works, Animal Farm and 1984. The only morality that the State ever imposes is that of the ruling individual -- in Nazi Germany it was Hitler; in WW2 Russia it was Stalin; in North Korea it is Kim Jong-il. Everybody else is out of luck.

Let's address those 4 statements directly

Conservatives like to point out that health care is 1/6th of the American economy. Don't they ever ask themselves why health care was allowed to consume so much of our economy?

Libs hate to acknowledge that healthcare includes things like machines and drugs that we export throughout the world.

Healthcare is 1/6th of he economy because it is a vital and growing part of the economy and it contributes significantly to our foreign trade.

Yes costs for health care here are growing, but that is both a factor of cost of goods manufactured increasing as well as the cost of runaway tort law that every lib considers sacred. There is no disagreement that malpractice tort reform is necessary to reduce the cost of health care. I wonder why Obamacare does nothing about that. I assume it's because once they nationalize he whole thing it will be illegal to sue the government.

We pledge ". . . and justice for all." Justice is that which honors human dignity. It is not possible to live a dignified human life without access to adequate health care; therefore, health care reform is a human right and it helps fulfill our pledge to seek justice for all.

Lincoln said that by extending freedom to the slaves we insure freedom for the free. The same principle works with health care. By extending health care to those without it, we insure health care for those who have it. Thousands lose their health coverage each day. We cannot allow this to continue.

Dear God, Please let them [The US House of Representatives] be right for the sake of your justice. As you have said, one of the marks your true followers is that we saw someone sick, and we did our best to help heal them.

Our health care system costs what it does because it is the best the world has ever seen. It is run by the some of the smartest people in the world and its technology is the most advanced in the world. Of course its going to cost money.

The claim that this legislation can "reduce" the cost of health care should have been more vigorously attacked from the beginning. So far, Barry has said that his great plan will reduce costs by 1) eliminating unnecessary tonsillectomies, 2) preventing foot amputations, 3) reducing duplicative testing by use of email.

There's also the fallacious claim that money will be saved by reducing or eliminating the 3% profit margin of the insurance companies. Barry plans on doing this by use of another government medical program, when he admits that Medicare and Medicaid lose "hundreds of billions" to fraud and abuse. It's so easy to steal money from those programs that the Mob is in on the scam. One wonders why Barry hasn't managed to bring the fraud and abuse under control, or even try. What a joke.

I'm surprised this was printed on the op-ed page of the NYT's.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/opinion/21holtz-eakin.html

This is written so simply, even Bruce should be able to understand it.

Barry thinks like the typical lib. Cost is just what you pay. Barry sees controlling costs as reducing what the government pays for healthcare and if that does actually cover what it costs to provide that healthcare then screw the hospital/doctor/healthcare worker who gets shorted! So some hospital workers lose their jobs? So what? They can go on the new improved unemployment.

After all it's all the government's money. What you take home costs the government because they don't receive it in taxes. Healthcare spending costs the government both as an employer and that it is money that is given to something other than government.

There is nothing in the bill to actually control costs. There is nothing to reduce the burden of government regulation (in fact increased regulation will actually increase costs). There is nothing to reduce the costs of abusive malpractice cases.

SO in reality Obama will let the tort lawyers go wild. He will put increased regulatory demands on Hospitals and doctors to report their activities and justify their treatments. They will require increased regulatory hurdles to get new products to market. Those products would either improve outcome or reduce cost of treatment. New product development will dry up as there won't be the pay off at the end to justify producing something new.

This will kill healthcare jobs, manufacturing jobs, construction jobs and jobs in trades. Tell 1/6th of the economy that there will be no jobs, no raises in the foreseeable future. See how many people go into that area as a profession.

What is dignified about getting an abortion?

Will it not affect the dignity of pro-Life people to be forced to pay for other people's abortions?

This ObamaCare bill isn't dignified.
It will strip taxpayers of their liberty to choose a health insurance plan that fits their needs.

Where is the dignity in having a faceless bureaucrat dictate whether or not and when an American can get a health procedure?

Michael, if your friend knows what the word dignity even means, how can he be associated with such a dishonorable group as the Democrats?

Is there dignity without honor?
No.

The private enterprise system has also failed to make us all millionaires. Let's just have the government print up some dough and let the professors hand it out.

I'm digging this, Michael. Good post!