"Wow. Somehow the rejection of a Republican candidate who was liberal enough that she endorsed the Democrat and was herself endorsed by unions has started dominoes falling that have doomed the Republican chances for the presidency 3 years later. Forgive me if I am unable to follow the dotted line that Frum lays out.

Not being able to "follow the dotted line" is precisely the criticism that most have leveled at the NY-23 debacle a few weeks ago.

No surprise that the trend is continuing - and that's why Frum is worried. Nothing was learned from the disastrous way NY-023 was handled by social conservatives - they seem hell-bent on repeating their mistakes, to the generla detrimnet of the GOP party.

Of course, of the GOP would just give these social conservative thugs what they want then there will be peace.

You'll lose a lot of elections, but then you guys will stop hating the GOP so much.

Maybe it's CNN that's doomed and clueless. But, there's hope. We have invented a devise to help CNN get on the right track to truth and knowledge. View here, http://stopthepresses2.blogspot.com/search/label/CNN-SAY

Steve, please tell me what you are drinking or smoking so I can plan for the weekend.

Let's see. The republican party in upstate NY did not hold a primary which is the accepted way of candidates being placed on the ballot. Some back room deal was struck, whether republican or demo, it is untoward. An independent conservative came forth, took a lot of votes, which is unheard of for an independent, the "hand picked" republican candidate dropped out, endorced the liberal democrat and what does the stupid left say? Including Steve? The republicans are finished.

I know the party apparatus, but one thing conservatives have is they vote country first, party second. I wish stevie could say the same. It is like two plus two equals five to the liberals. ww

There is so much of a disconnect going on now between average folks and the population that inhabits the corridor from Boston down to Washington.
I really think that if you get out of the bed in the morning and never talk to or hear anything good about the average conservative, you begin to believe what is constantly drummed into you from the MSM and the elites of both parties.
Yes, Conservatives are as rare as a democrat politician that paid his taxes in that area. They are gone, left the area.
For instance, my Senator, Linseed Graham, has run completely off the tracks politically. An he is hearing about it.
He got to Washington, started watching the local news, reading the Washington Post and New York Times, and starting hanging around with liberals, craving their attention and approval.
The Republicans will be OK, if the effects of Peckerheads in the Republican party, like Linseed Graham are minimized.

Let the dems think whatever they want, it's okay with me if they think we're doomed, divided, and destined for defeat. It's not such a bad thing to be underestimated, you know.

Sorry about my above posts.
I hit Post by accident. There are several spelling errors and omitted thoughts.

Speaking as a Democrat and a Liberal, **please** continue having a conservative purity test for all of your candidates.

You're absolutely right, moderates can't win. Please go for as hardcore conservative Tea Party candidates as you can get.

But seriously - why would I even egg you on, when I'm sure that this process of primarying your moderates will lead to Democratic victory?

Because there actually is a purpose that can be served by conservatives, even though I absolutely disagree. A healthy democracy requires a spirited, logical opposition - and the Democratic party needs to be challenged, like any party in power.

So I don't even know what good is being done by me posting this on this blog - but the GOP is seriously headed for near-eternal minority status if you pursue this hard-right litmus test.

The majority of Americans is NOT pro-life. The majority of Americans SUPPORT a public option. Etc. etc.

Please get with reality. You don't have to change your ideology. Just get with the actual facts as they currently exist, I implore you.

Frum is a fucking idiot. And that's being polite. Hey Frum, I had a 'plan'. Let those bastards FAIL! It would have been messy, but we'd be back up on the way to recovery by now. Instead, we have President Numnuts tooling around the world in AF1 accomplishing nothing other than staying out of Washington were his ass belongs.

Scratch that. By staying out of Washington, he can't do us much harm.

s green "No surprise that the trend is continuing - and that's why Frum is worried. Nothing was learned from the disastrous way NY-023 was handled by social conservatives"

Disastrous, but not in the way you think.

It was a disaster that the local district repubs, with no thought to the electorate, placed on the ballot a candidate that not only was LEFT but endosed by non other than leftest loony DKos.

As a sidenote, typical of DKos, every candidate he's endorsed has lost.

That said, to call "scuzzi what's her name" a repub is the same as calling you, s green level headed, fair and invective free.

I"f you get my drift.

P.S. here's some disaster for you s green.

1. Bill Owens who "won" that election cast a yes vote for the House health care bill. He wasn't certified by his States election commissioner to do so.

2. Fish swim, birds fly, 'conservative' Democratic legislators like Bill Owens betray their principles on cue.

GOUVERNEUR, NY - Congressman-elect Bill Owens was sworn in at noon today.

Owens indicated in a press release that he was now in favor of the bill in direct contrast to his earlier position during his campaign.

According to Politico.com, Mr. Owens assured voters that he felt the public option had no place in the health care reform bill. Contrary to that position, Mr. Owens now indicates that he intends to vote in favor of the bill even though it now contains a public option.

Owens was opposed to cutting Medicare benefits, taxing health care benefits, and increased taxes on the middle class in any way. His vote on the bill made him a turncoat on all three of those issues as it contains all three.

Bill Owens will go down as having one of the shortest terms in House of Reps history.

Re "Nothing was learned from the disastrous way NY-023 was handled by social conservatives "

So the liberal Republicans leadership had no hand in the disastrous way NY-023 was handled? Yep Steve you must be a social liberal because you are never to blame.

Jim
If you want a contest of opposing ideas as you claim then you really would want the GOP to put up conservatives and the DNC to put up liberals. However I think you are only paying lip service to that idea.

I'm sure you believe you philosophical ideas are the majority view. I don't. Let's put it to a test by doing what I said above instead of both parties putting forth candidates that use typical political vague speeches and trying to be on both sides at once

"Liberal Republican leadership"? Who the heck might that be Wayne?

I don't think conservatives are dead. Karl Rove thought Republicans would be in power forever. We Democrats had better pay lots of attention to those words. Hubris can be a fatal disease.

jim x "The majority of Americans is NOT pro-life."

Pssst May 2009 "A new Gallup Poll, conducted May 7-10, finds 51% of Americans calling themselves "pro-life" on the issue of abortion and 42% "pro-choice." This is the first time a majority of U.S. adults have identified themselves as pro-life since Gallup began asking this question in 1995"

To paraphrase you, Please stop spewing BS. You don't have to change your ideology. Just get with the actual facts as they currently exist, I implore you.

But you won't 'cause you LUV BS.

Many dislike Rush Limbaugh so I hesitate to refer to his theory but if you carefully look over history, you will see it has merits.

Whatever Democrats are talking about in regards to Republicans it actually refers back to themselves ... they accuse the GOP of what THEY are doing.

Example, the Republicans are "in-fighting" and have a civil war taking place.....uhm, seems to us that it is the Blue Dog Dems that have some issues with Pelosi, Reid, & Company.

Example, the Republicans refuse to work with this President.....uhm, seems to us that if you hold the White House and both houses of Congress YOU DON'T NEED NO REPUBLICANS ... guess the media is still promoting this lie.

Example, Republicans are attacking the decision to try KSM etal in New York for political reasons ....uhm, listen to Governor Paterson and his take on this fiasco.

Marc, here's the polls I'm referring to:

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

So the Gallup poll you mention contradicts at least 7 other current polls. I think we can see which way the probability is.

But let's say you're right and I'm wrong, and less than a majority of Americans are pro-Life. Is it still smart as a party to tell **any and all** GOP candidates who aren't pro-Life to go jump in a lake?

Democrats elect candidates who are pro-Life. Those candidates help Democrats have a majority.

But hey, do what you like. :) I'm done trying to convince you. I'm just showing you my factual basis. If you want to believe that's BS, it's totally your choice. It's just not backed up by the facts.

"If you want a contest of opposing ideas as you claim then you really would want the GOP to put up conservatives and the DNC to put up liberals. However I think you are only paying lip service to that idea."

Thank you for at least admitting that the DNC's candidates aren't true liberals, but at best center-Left.

But yes, I *do* want more liberal candidates. I and many of us over here in what Howard Dean called "The Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" dearly want more Feingold's, Boxers, Frankens, and many others I'm sure you all detest.

The difference is when a good candidate who can be elected comes up who **isn't** necessarily pro-choice, but is running in a socially conservative district, we don't necessarily torpedo them.

But maybe we should, you're right.

We would however have less of a majority if we did that.

Every two weeks Frum comes out shrieking about how things are going bad for conservatives, he has no credability whatsoever. He and David Brooks are like concern trolls. They run around acting like they are so concerned about Republican message, but then recommend all of the remedies that would render the party to permanent loser status.

D.K., I wouldn't say the Republican Party is *doomed*, but the internecine war between the neocon, crypto-neocon, and christianist branches of the **pro-war** wing of the rump Republican party, might keep the well-intended Republican voter *clueless* as Bush era is rewritten, revised by Bushites. Republican woes must be seen as appendex to Bush era.

As encouragement, a reminder. Frum is a neocon. Neocons emerged as pro-war Democrats to inhabit the ascendant Reagan administration. Neocons, being parasites, need live hosts. Either Frum holds hope for Republican recovery or Frum will more or less formally leave the party, which can only clear things up.

jim x writes:
"So I don't even know what good is being done by me posting this on this blog - but the GOP is seriously headed for near-eternal minority status if you pursue this hard-right litmus test.

The majority of Americans is NOT pro-life. The majority of Americans SUPPORT a public option. Etc. etc."

This is what I like about liberals. The mistaken impression that the entire conservative agenda is centered around abortion. Well, I'll pay the liberals a compliment here: I don't think the majority of liberals support late term abortions but the far leftist Obama/Pelosi/jim x wing of the Democratic Party want to make sure that any baby at any point in its term (and even afterward if it survives an abortion) is shovel-ready. It's the same type of strategy that if we disagree with Obama then we are racist. When that wears thin it's the abortion issue. Back and forth, back and forth, blah, blah, blah.

All in all people like jim x use the abortion thing as a distraction to avoid having to discuss the unsustainable economic policies of Obama/Pelosi, the indecisiveness, the prostration of the President in the presence of dictators, etc.

As for Frum, opening the "big tent" can work both ways. I can't figure out what sort of bug these former presidential speechwriters like Frum and Noonan have up their respective chutes.

Actually, I think the Republicans need a civil war. IMO, there's a lot of tension between the different flavors of conservative, and you can only keep a lid on that tension for so long. And, IMO, the only way to resolve that tension is with a messy electoral fight.

CNN Opinion: Republicans Doomed and Clueless

Then the Reds have nothing to worry, do they?

James H -

I'm not sure you're wrong in that the Republicans need something to clarify what's going on. And I'm thinking we're starting to see what's been in the background for the last couple of decades.

Consider - the REPUBLICAN rank and file of NY23 rejected the Republican Committee choice. If she were really willing to listen to the people, and 'conservative' and committed to the Republican party, she would have swallowed her ego and backed the choice of the Republican rank and file.

But you know, we just can't HAVE all these little people deciding for themselves who they'll have representing them. They get uppity like that, and pretty soon they'll start wanting the Representatives to LISTEN to them, and pay attention - and that just won't do.

So instead of going with the party, she dropped out and endorsed the Democrat. One must show solidarity with one's peers, of course - and the sorry little piss-ass peasants who rejected her deserved what they got.

As I've posted before - the folks we elect aren't aristocrats, untouchable and unaccountable once they're elected. They answer to US - and it's about time that was made very plain indeed.

"CNN Opinion: Republicans Doomed and Clueless"

You libs would be well advised to watch out for conservatives who are not obliged to any party.. Only the Country.

How convenient for Frum to ignore VA and NJ elections.

Two statewide elections with enormous losses for the Dems mean nothing, while an insignificant local race in upstate NY is the end of Republicans forever.

And these guys are supposed to be intelligent.

What VA and NJ elections tell me is that, for the Dems to win in 2010, they better get the Republican candidates to drop out of the races the weekend before the elections.

And make sure Obama stays away from all races.

Dave D, sigh. I'm using pro-life as an example of being hard right conservative as opposed to a moderate conservative who *could* be pro-choice.

My ***whole point***, sigh, is that there are Republican moderates and economic conservatives who could have a useful place. These are not the people being accepted by your hard rightwing base - these are the people being, in the new verb form, Scozzofava'd.

And your hard rightwingers are not being accepted by your moderates - or Hoffman would have won instead of Owens. And he Virginia candidate also won by downplaying his social conservatism, and concentrating instead on economic issues.

But hey, it's time for me to bow out and let you continue to drive into the ditch. Hey, maybe you'll prove me wrong anyway. Who knows?

You Libs crack me up - criticizing republicans for not backing a selected-not-elected primary candidate who would be a poster-woman for the anti-republican leftist media. But, conveniently you ignore the results of your own internal fights. Best example: giving Joe Lieberman the boot in his drive to get re-elected to his Senate seat. You didn't like Joe's moderate position on certain issues so you basically said: "Joe - get the fuck out of our party!" So he did. And now your 60 vote majority in Senate is actually 59 plus Mr Independent. One result of your stupidity: you wont get cloture on the Senate healthless bill and it will die in the Senate. Please congratulate yourselves for being such geniuses!

Well, that sure brought out the Concern Trolls; right on cue.

Folks, the Lefties/Dems are scared of the Repubs stumbling upon a popular, small-govt, unabashedly pro-American candidate. Yes Repubs are the stupid party (especially the recent 'leaders' of the GOP), but even a blind squirrel...etc..
The Dems are so completely controlled by wingnut Leftists that a small-govt type politician is going to look pretty good soon.

Their batshit over-reaction to Palin and the Teaparty movement prove we are on the right track. When the RINOs squeal loudest about a Repub, chances are that Repub is worth seriously considering.

jim x "But let's say you're right and I'm wrong, and less than a majority of Americans are pro-Life. Is it still smart as a party to tell **any and all** GOP candidates who aren't pro-Life to go jump in a lake?"

The few that are advocating that are just that damn few. So few they would number about the same as s green's brain cells.

So your point is what?

jim x "But yes, I *do* want more liberal candidates. I and many of us over here in what Howard Dean called "The Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" dearly want more Feingold's, Boxers, Frankens, and many others I'm sure you all detest."

It's a wet dream of enormous proportions is it?

But I suspect after what the the 3 clowns have and are doing [pelosi/reid/obama] you'll have to dream of something else to get your jollies.

Maybe Palin in a g string will do it fer ya.

jim x "The difference is when a good candidate who can be elected comes up who **isn't** necessarily pro-choice, but is running in a socially conservative district, we don't necessarily torpedo them.

Different social issue but I bet Joe Lieberman wouldn't think the same. He's still got scars from all the back stabbing from his own party.

And your hard rightwingers are not being accepted by your moderates - or Hoffman would have won instead of Owens. And he Virginia candidate also won by downplaying his social conservatism, and concentrating instead on economic issues.

False and false.

The first claim is based on mistaken polling and voting data on election night in NY-23. It now turns out that Hoffman got a lot more votes than anyone ever suspected because of machine and canvassing errors. At last report, Hoffman was only down about 2000 votes with some 10,000 absentees to be counted.

THIS means that the voters did not reject Hoffman or the "hard core right wingers", but rather a combination of:

1. Early voters voting "Dede" when they thought they were voting for a republican (rather than a Dem in GOP clothing).

2. Last minute DeDe voters pushed into Owen's camp by her treacherous (and it is political treason) endorsement of Owens over Hoffman (who was clearly the favorite of her own party rank and file).

3. The fact that Hoffman wasn't a very good campaigner.

4. The fact that Hoffman didn't even technically live in the district

All four are more than enough to explain why Hoffman lost an extremely narrow election rather than the smackdown that the media tried to sell on election night and is no longer supported by the facts.

As for VA and NJ, neither candidate hid nor apologized for their social conservative views and both were elected anyway by healthy margins even though the other candidate tried to make this an issue. That's a far cry from "downplaying" it. Both Christie and McDonnel knew that the voters wanted answers to economic questions and so naturally that's what they concentrated on...but don't think they were "stealth" on social issues. They were not.

-Polaris

On behalf of conservatives everywhere, I would like to thank the spittle-flecked leftists and spineless squishes like Frum for all their helpful suggestions on how conservatives should engage the issues and select candidates. I'm sure it was all offered in a pure spirit of earnest affection and with our best interests in mind.

Please be assured that your advice has been received and will be given every due consideration. Thanks again, we really appreciate it!

Now we would also appreciate it if you STFU and crawl back under your rocks and, the next time you get an idea for us, remember the sage counsel of Jim Carville (to Howard Dean): "Consider the beauty of the unspoken thought."

Thank you very much.

"On behalf of conservatives everywhere, I would like to thank the spittle-flecked leftists and spineless squishes like Frum for all their helpful suggestions on how conservatives should engage the issues and select candidates."

Frum is a conservative. He's just not a bat-shit crazy social conservative, and for that he's excoriated by those socially conservative extremists.

Hear that sound? It's the GOP splintering even more.

Sad.

Not.

Vic

Frum is a conservative. He's just not a bat-shit crazy social conservative, and for that he's excoriated by those socially conservative extremists.

Hear that sound? It's the GOP splintering even more.

Please keep on telling yourself that. I won't mind a bit. It will make what's coming in 2010 all the more difficult to accept and I won't mind a bit.

The fact is that elements within the GOP have always bickered and disagreed to some extent even in during the ascent of Reagan and even right after 1994 and 2004.

The only thing Frum has done is had the bad manners to air his dirty laundry publically because he's losing his fight to influence the GOP the way he wants. Quite frankly from a political tactics PoV, Frum is dead wrong. When a party has such a deep minority status as the GOP does now, it's message MUST be crystal clear and it MUST contrast clearly against what the majority party wants....and that's contrary (apparently) to what Frum wants but it is the direction the GOP is going.

Not happy with that, Frum complains to MSM news outlets like CNN who are not friends of the GOP (or Frum) to put it mildly.

-Polaris

Frum is a David Brooks or a half-sane Andy Sullivan, a blatant counter-insurgent waging war against the tea-bagging conspiracy infecting our iniquitous nation.

You're absolutely right, moderates can't win. Please go for as hardcore conservative Tea Party candidates as you can get.

Actually, that which you call 'Tea Party candidates' are the fiscal conservative - like myself. IMO, fiscally conservative candidates win - Obama at times campaigned as if he were one (an obvious lie). The smartest thing the GOP could do is realize that the social conservative issues are NOT winners with the independent voters.

IMO, most people want the government out of their wallet and their bedroom.

Vic -

Your heart's just not in it any more, is it?

You're looking at Obama acting more and more clueless and indecisive, seeing support drop for what's being labeled as 'health care reform' but is looking more like a grab for an economic sector the government shouldn't stick its fingers in, and seeing all the climate initiative stuff like Cap&Tax and 'green' stimulus jobs not producing what they were hoping for.

You're seeing money being sprayed out from the government fire hose... and I think you're starting to get a clue who's going to be paying that off.

Wallet feeling a trifle thin lately? Looking at the debt and going "Damn - you mean I'm the one who's going to be paying this joker's IOUs off?"

Starting to figure out you can't tax people into prosperity?

Thinking that maybe you didn't win a hell of a lot with Obama?

Don't worry, Vic. You'll figure it out sooner or later.

CNN the COMMUNISTS NEWS NETWORK run and owned by RED TED TURNER and BIG BAD WOLF BLITZER

I want my candidates Socially Conservative on a personal level, but Socially Tolerant enough to allow Gay Life-Unions (or whatever, not "marriage") and abortion if that is what the states themselves decide.

I want my candidates to be Fiscally Conservative, reduce the deficit, lower taxes, put any revenue back into the debt instead of expanding social programs.

Social Security needs to be fixed, otherwise it will collapse anyway. There are better ways to do it than the Govt running the whole thing.

Medicare is too ingrained in the current system to get rid of. We need to stop now, anyone over the age of 30 will be allowed to continue with Medicare, anyone under will be responsible for their own healthcare or go into a new system of health care credits (cant remember who keeps bringing that idea up but I like it). I do see a need to have a fallback option for people who reach 65 and can't afford regular insurance any longer.

If they want a "public option" of some sort, lets fix social security and medicare first to prove that they know what they are doing. At that point you can begin moving people onto medicare by age group to make sure you dont suddenly shock the system. Meanwhile we need Lawsuit (tort) Reform and interstate availability to current insurers.

If a company looks like it is going to fail, let them go through bankruptcy. Do not "bail them out". This was GWB's biggest mistake, he opened the flood gates starting with TARP and now the Government is majority owner of a car company. WTF? If the banks and car industry need to fail, let them fail. Other businesses will spring up to fill the void. The recession would possibly last longer, but on the other side everything would be fixed instead of simply extending life support long enough to bring the cancerous companies back into the body.

I do not see some sort of civil war taking place in the Republican party. If primaries are held, then the true fiscal conservatives will win out for the nomination. Then the conservative Indies and the Repubs will line up behind that conservative candidate regardless of their standing on Social Issues, as long as they are not left of the democrat candidate on the issues like Scuzzy was.

The GOP has the "civil war" but the Dems control EVERYTHING and can't pass healthcare or cap and trade? I'm missing something here, right?

I don't think a candidate representing the Republican party's vocal, angry constituency -- that is, the Tea Party faction -- can win the 2012 election. But they're still worth watching.

The vocal, angry faction of the Democratic Party -- the Deaniacs -- got trounced in 2004. But, IMHO, those Deaniacs and the organization they formed were key to the Democratic resurgence in 2006 and 2008.

The Tea Party faction bears watching.

Jim X
The DNC put up many Candidates the last election that ran to the right of the GOP candidate in many areas. IMO that help them win. Unfortunately that is not how they govern.

Micheal
The GOP leadership that nominated a candidate much more liberal then the DNC candidate in NY-023.

When did Karl Rove state Republicans would be in power forever?

The Rep victories in NJ & VA are more important than elitist liberal Rep drop-out defeat/ support for Dems over a Conservative.

Victory in Iraq & Afghanistan, lower taxes/ spending/ smaller gov't, pro-life & respect for hetero marriage.
Most Americans support 2 or more of these 3 key Republican positions. But there will always be tensions between those who support only 2 against the third they oppose (like Ron Paul against the war, pro-life Catholics against the war (and even in favor of bigger gov't), and small gov't Libs against pro-life Christians.

McCain blew it in the first debate, like too many elected Reps, w/o an answer to the 'financial crisis'. The answer -- more, and immediate, Tax Cuts; tax holidays, tax rebates, deferred taxes that might not have to be paid for a year (and might be forgiven).

Bankruptcy for the Big Banks that blew it; with the Fed ready to replace any 'needed' bank activities, and with FDIC to protect depositors.

Too many incumbent Reps refuse to fight the publicity battle in favor of the highly successful anti-recession Bush Tax Cuts (which McCain opposed, before he sort of favored; tho he opposed them for the correct reason of too much spending).

The Rep party is about to split ...off those unwilling to support tax cuts and smaller gov't.