It should be noted that these same people chosen by Obama also refused to acknowledge George W. Bush as president. "He is not my president" went the familiar refrain. Birds of a feather.

Bravo Kim, yet another senseless missive filled with distortions and misinformation. How odd that you in an article in which you characterize President Obama's presumably offensive statements, you offer not a single quote reflecting an offensive remark. I'm sure there's something out there you can take out of context.

To be clear, the objection the President and many others have to the town hall mobs is not that they disagree with the health care bills -- both the President and Democrats have publicly and repeatedly acknowledged that debate is good. Rather, the problem is that these right-wing goons simply scream, interrupt, seek to intimidate and don't allow people at the meetings to hear their representatives speak. The fact that most are out of their minds and merely parrot what they read in this rag or hear on Fox is beside the point.

To end on a positive note, though, your article does live up to the journalstic standards of PJTV, the same network that sent the erudite Joe the Plumber to the Middle East as a correspondent.

Yeah, that "post-partisan" president appears to have some problems. And here I am, still waiting for the "Hope and Change" to kick in.
And Libs wonder why the "Mein Fuhrer" shtick starts to kick in.

Rep. Shelia Jackson had a DOCTOR speak up in support of ObamaCare at one of her town hall meetings. Turns out the DOCTOR is really a student at the same university where Jackson's husband is a VP. Can you say "Axelturfing"?
BTW, Jackson was so concerned with what people were saying to her, she took a cell phone call while someone was speaking to her. Priorities ya know. That will make a great video when Jackson runs for re-election.

First, to Jim:
Welcome, Troll. Why don't you just face the fact that the Democrat "representatives" are merely spewing left-wing talking points at these meetings, which can make anyone angry.
And don't forget the "multitasking" Rep Lee (D-obnoxious)during a quite moderate question by a constituent.
Second, To Jeff:
Got to say, I can now understand the feelings that caused the "He's not my President" lament by the left against GW. I admit to being somewhat to the right of Atila the Hun. The fact that I have stickers all over my car (1) 1/20/2009: The beginning of an ERROR, (2) Don't tread on me, (3) O(ne)B(ig)A($$ed)M(istake)A(merica), when I have NEVER done this before, may indicate my "disdain" for the current resident of the white house. That said, you play the cards you are dealt, so I wait with anticipation for 2012!!!

Codekeyguy: Nice brainless retort. You did not deny a single thing I said in my post. Not one. All you do is offer excuses for these misinformed zealots.

By the way, how about these examples of right wing moronism on full display at town hall meetings: The guy who asked Specter if had read the Koran, or the guy who screamed and yelled and declared that Specter would one day stand before God. There are so many precious more mindless diatribes.

I admit, I derive morbid pleasure from seeing you folks scream and shout. It's like watching the Right in rigor mortis. I hope all of America gets to watch these town hall meetings. The more they do, the more it will show moderates just how offbase the Right has become. Progressives are in ascent, and the demographics are slowly snuffing any viability the Right has left on a national level.

jim,

It is clear that you have nothing to add to this conversation. Go back and look at your horrible choice of words, your characterizations of those you hate. This is how you hope to suggest to others that they should change their style according to your lights. Which judging by your own words are not too bright.

Your spewing of the lies that mobs are threatening innocent politicians is ludicrous. Instead of allowing said representatives to bullshit the people and call only on his/her handpicked agents, folks are stepping up to make darn sure these reps can no longer hide from the great concern that a majority of Americans are beginning to express in no uncertain terms.

Ignoring the unprecedented baiting of the citizens of this country by its president is ignorance on your part that none of us here are going to let you or your ilk get away with. You sound like everyone I have heard vilifying the President of the United States for the last eight years. Now you people are pretending that no president should be argued with or put in his place.

Just amazing the hypocrisy you people show us. Spew bile year after year with a multitude of moments when President Bush was depicted as Hitler and Satan and now that citizens have the nerve to stand up to this phony in the White House who has no knowledge at all of how a President should behave, you and others just like you put on this big act like you never have or would speak ill of your President or your precious (dem) representatives.

Go away Jim, you're causing nausea around here.

jim - "To be clear, the objection the President and many others have to the town hall mobs is not that they disagree with the health care bills -- both the President and Democrats have publicly and repeatedly acknowledged that debate is good."

Well then how would you classify this obama quote, presumably in ref to the town hall meetings?

"I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess"...

Sounds like a pretty clear STFU to me. What say you?

Progressives are in ascent, and the demographics are slowly snuffing any viability the Right has left on a national level.

In your dreams Jim, in your dreams.

MichaelC: "Go away Jim." Clearly the Right is inviting of discourse. Point well taken.

If you want bile, look at the town hall clowns, that's bile. I stand by every single one of my post. My observations are correct. You folks have never given this president a fair chance: I know you who you are: you're the teabaggers, the birthers and now the town hall mobs. You're the same folks, just recycled.

I'm here to object to how you folks "bullshit the people." You lie, you distort, you make shit up.

And, please enlighten me about the "choice of words" you object to.

jim - "By the way, how about these examples of right wing moronism on full display at town hall meetings: The guy who asked Specter if had read the Koran, or the guy who screamed and yelled and declared that Specter would one day stand before God. There are so many precious more mindless diatribes."

And BTW... so what?

There are mindless trolls and nutcakes on both sides, your point is?

That said, considering the vast majority of US citizens do believe in God why is someone labeled in the way you have for proclaiming "Specter would one day stand before God?"

Sorry, you're in the minority on that point.

"I hope all of America gets to watch these town hall meetings. The more they do, the more it will show moderates just how offbase the Right has become."

Then perchance you have a reasonable explanation why as more townhalls are appearing on the web and the news the lower poll numbers are. In the last two weeks those supporting the plans before congress have dropped like a rock and are now the minority.

Marc you say: "I don't want the folks who created the mess to do a lot of talking. I want them to get out of the way so we can clean up the mess...

Sounds like a pretty clear STFU to me. What say you?"

In full context it's clear to anyone with an elementary school education that he's arguing that the deliberative process should not be stalled by the Right -- the ones that held the WH for 8 years and controlled both houses of Congress, yet failed to reform health care when the public was clamoring for it. He's arguing against delay, not free speech.

Marc: The polls are dropping because you folks like (e.g., death panels).

Regarding the religous issue: We're a secular country, and becoming more so. And how presumtous of anyone to assume how God will judge anyone. What hubris.

jim - "You folks have never given this president a fair chance: I know you who you are: you're the teabaggers, the birthers and now the town hall mobs. You're the same folks, just recycled."

Well if that's the way you wanna be, so be it.

You're nothing but a cheap recycled version of Janeane Garofalo with presumably smaller teats and assuming you haven't had any implants.

Marc: I appreciate the compliment -- and the non-denial. We all know it's true: the same angry, bitter, small-minded people.

jim - "Regarding the religous [sic] issue: We're a secular country, and becoming more so. And how presumtous of anyone to assume how God will judge anyone. What hubris."

Geebus, do you swallow obama's rhetoric whole or do you slice it in bite-sized pieces?

In this case when he stood in a Muslim country and proclaimed America isn't a religious country.

"The study detailed Americans' deep and broad religiosity, finding that 92 percent believe in God or a universal spirit -- including one in five of those who call themselves atheists. More than half of Americans polled pray at least once a day."

Guess you're clueless.

And BTW, "nice" rewrite of what that citizen said he didn't make any judgment he only said the Multi-party Spector would be judged before God.

P.S. secular is defined as: "of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred; temporal: secular interests."

jim - "Marc: I appreciate the compliment -- and the non-denial. We all know it's true: the same angry, bitter, small-minded people."

What non-denial would that?

Ok here is is, I DENY you have anything of consequence to say other than wide-sweeping generalizations about those at tea parties and town hall meetings.

Prove me wrong, show me and the rest here that everyone are what you claim them to be.

Thanks for the insight Marc. I'm sorry I forced you to look up the definition of "secular," I'll try to use more monosyllabic words for you to avoid any inconvenience.

Let me just disabuse you about your misimpression of me: I'm a Roman Catholic. As a Roman Catholic, I adhere to my Church's teaching that reliable affordable health care is a basic right. I adhere to my Church's position which favor universal health care. You know, the central tenant of religion is not "each man to himself," and I don't believe that God supports the "fuck-the-ininsured" crowd.

Nonetheless, good people can disagree about policy, and religion should not be injected into the debate. It's divisive.

As to the town haller, you and I both know what he was implyig. It's typical right wing evangelical bullshit: that Christ is going to condemn Specter. The town haller was not being impartial in his comment. Again, you distort.

"We all know it's true: the same angry, bitter, small-minded people." Pot... meet kettle..
Jim.. save your BS for DU or Kos.. we aren't buying it.. A TROLL by any other name.. is STILL a TROLL.. move on.
What YOU and your Ilk are upset and WORRIED about is how vocal and pissed the right is about this. To be honest, I can't remember the last time the "Silent Majority" got so up and arms about something, and I'm pleased they are! After 8 years of nothing but bullshit from the left. Oh, and before you say it.. I know you'll say your not worried, somebody is.. what with all the phone conference "Town halls" and the BUSING IN of pro "O" people.

Marc - regarding comment #7. Obama again blaming Bush for everything. That record is getting a little too much air time. Isn't Clinton partially responsible for some of the financial mess we are faced with? Isn't the democratic congress partially responsible? Up on capital hill they need to take stock of themselves and start doing what they were paid to do. They get benefits, paid vacations, paid transportation, huge salaries (even after they retire) (I could go on and on but I think you get the picture) and they have no clue how they are sinking the ship. They act like the money they are throwing around is monopoly money. And to top it off, Obama will be blaming Bush if Michelle gets a zit. When will the blame game end?
Madalyn

Roman Catholic? Aren't they against abortion?.. hmmm.. yes,, it's in the bill, and WE will pay for it.

jim - "Let me just disabuse you about your misimpression of me: I'm a Roman Catholic. As a Roman Catholic, I adhere to my Church's teaching that reliable affordable health care is a basic right. I adhere to my Church's position which favor universal health care."

Who the hell was referring to you, other than YOU?

First, show me where in the Constitution is health care outlined as a basic right?

Secondly you're religious upbringing, or current belief doesn't mean jack shit to me and isn't germane to the debate.

Furthermore, if what you claim true have you called out the dems/progressives/libturds that blocked an amendment to one health care bill that would specifically block fed money to used for abortion in any form or manner?

Without express language in the bill there is little doubt the very same dems/progressives/libturds will eventually funnel cash to abortion orgs and causes not to mention the act itself.

And BTW, you look to be the fool again, and over your own religion no less.

"Obama seeks religious support for health bill - Bishops say NO."

Ran: I like it here in crazy town. It's amusing. I'll stay. Btw, so you know, I prefer Huffpost over Kos. Glad you concede your the same people -- so transparent.

"he's arguing that the deliberative process should not be stalled by the Right" -

No, Jim - he's not arguing. He's coming right out and flatly saying that the right shouldn't have a voice. Spin it all you want - that's what he's wanting for an end result.

And delay? Hell, it's going to take at LEAST until 2014 to get this show on the road - why NOT take a few extra months to let everyone see and understand what's in it? Why the rush?

Clamoring for 8 years for health care? Seems to me like there was something ELSE going on, and there wasn't a great clamoring for Bush to implement any health care reforms. In fact, when he suggested reforming Social Security he was roundly condemned by Democrats - because it didn't NEED reform! At least, not reform by a Republican...

It's really pretty simple - the Dems in Washington know that if they DO get this thing passed, it's so messed up that they're going to blow their chances in 2010 and 2012. They've got to fail - but fail plausibly. So they're setting up the evil Republicans - THEY can be the villians while the virtuous Democrats can weep and moan about the sheer MEANNESS of the right, and hope to twist it as a win for their side.

BTW, you might be interested in this article. It really describes well what the process is.

Madalyn -

"When will the blame game end?"

It won't. It literally can't. Read the article I referenced in post 23. It's a long one - but the psychology of paranoia and projection fits the Democrats so very well.

Everything can be explained by this kind of paranoid logic. In fact, paranoia is really nothing more than the use of reason and logic in the service of the irrational and bizarre.

Are you poor? Someone must have robbed you of what you are entitled to!

Are you angry and experiencing hatred, but like to think of yourself as a loving, compassionate sort of person? Then the object of your hatred magically becomes the one who hates...you!

Is your genius not universally recognized? You must have powerful enemies that prevent you from achieving the success you know should be yours.

Have you made mistakes in your life? Someone has clearly tricked you into acting a certain way otherwise you wouldn't have.

Has your ideology continually and repeatedly failed in the real world and resulted in death and misery for all who implement it? Take heart! It is not your fault or your ideology's! Either it wasn't implemented virutously enough; or there were evil [Republican, Neocon, Male, White, Christian, Jewish] forces (choose one or more) that have been plotting against it!

The above mental gymnastics allow the paranoid person to externalize blame and avoid responsibility for his situation in life, as well as his own feelings. It is always someone else's fault and not his. It is always someone else who is experiencing the objectionable feelings, and he is always the victim of it.

In addition to externalizing blame for one's own pitiful situation in life, there is yet another advantage to paranoia and projection: very often, a creative distortion of reality can reliably pump up one's own self-esteem! You are the righteous; persecuting the true racists thus proving you, yourself, are incapable of any racist thoughts or emotions! Aren't you wonderful?

Sometimes, it pumps it that self-esteem up at the expense of a great deal of fear; but nevertheless, it is comforting to know that someone appreciates your genius or the threat you represent. Clearly if the CIA, FBI, aliens, Jews , POTUS, Republicans, Business/capitalism, Big Oil [--fill in your favorite bogeyman here--] are out to get you, you must be very special and unique indeed.

In short, paranoia and its baby brother projection organize and distort reality in a way that makes it palatable; and, at the same time help the user to avoid recognizing some unpleasant truths about himself. When practiced on a societal or cultural level, it accomplishes the same thing on a larger scale. All you have to do is eliminate the external problem and everything will be all right and you'll never have to question your beliefs--or say you are sorry-- again.

'Obama was arguing that the deliberative process should not be stalled'

WTF! Stalled? IT WAS FUCKING RUN OVER!!
Jim, can your flea brain recall PASS IT NOW! EMERGENCY! NO DEBATE! PASS IT! GOTTA GET IT DONE BEFORE AUGUST RECESS!

There was going to be NO debate,it was going to be shoved thru, just like The Stimulus Bill (that didn't).

Pull your fucking head out.

Oh Marc, you're a slippery little inconsistent one. Now you get all secular on me. You're the one that defended the religious bigot in front of Specter. My only point is, if inserting religion into the debate is legitimate, then there you have the Catholic position.

There currently is no provision covering abortion. It's too hot. Even if there were, a consistent Catholic would oppose the abortion provision, not universal care overall. In fact, the consistent Catholic would support universal care.

That said, glad we agree religion should not be injected here.

Jim - "There currently is no provision covering abortion. It's too hot. Even if there were, a consistent Catholic would oppose the abortion provision, not universal care overall. In fact, the consistent Catholic would support universal care."

2 Things:

1) Rep Zoe Lofgren (D, California) in a town hall meeting Monday acknowledged that Government programs will and should be covered by the plan. So it's not too hot apparently for Congress.

2) Your comment about a consistent Catholic makes no sense. If abortion is included in a universal coverage plan it is inextricably part of that plan. if you are saying that in your view that a Catholic should oppose only that provision but should support the whole plan regardless of whether the provision is included or not you badly misread the feelings of many Catholics. For people who consider it akin to murder you are saying that they should allow some murder because the over all package is beneficial to the country. Sick.

Should have read:

1) Rep Zoe Lofgren (D, California) in a town hall meeting Monday acknowledged that abortion will and should be covered by the plan. So it's not too hot apparently for Congress.

jim m
You forget, jim is a devot "Nancy Pelosi" Catholic. Nancy is an expert on Catholic theology. She even presumes to lecture the Pope. From her throne in the House, Nancy has said that abortion is okay. Guess that makes her infallible.

Nope Garandfan, I'm a JPII, Benedict XVI Catholic that agrees with them: universal care is a social justice mandate. Im a Catholic who can't stand my co-religionsts who crusade against abortion because the Church says it's wrong, and then ignore the social justice mandate because it doesn't suit them.

Night, night crazy town.

Well, thank our lucky stars! A new, pretentious douchebag is gracing our presence in "crazy town."

Thanks, Jimmy! As for central tenets of religion, I know of none that encourage taking other peoples stuff for the common good. If that's your take on the meaning of charity, you're a real shallow-ender.

hi apb (asshole prick bonehead?). I guess in your crazy town world, religions oppose all forms of taxation for any purpose because all taxation is necessarily confiscatory. But what happens in the real world? The answer: ding, ding, ding -- all mainstream religions support taxation, even fundamentalist ones. So yes, they "encourage taking other peole's stuff for the common good."

Jim - "I'm a Roman Catholic and the religion is for Obamacare"

BS. I'm a Roman Catholic. Nowhere does the
Catholic church talk about rights for ANYONE. And Healthcare is not an issue, except that the line of popes has consistantly come out AGAINST abortion.

Sounds to me more of the left claiming support that just isn't there - like Obama claiming the AARP yesterday.

The preachings of the religion are to give what you can to those less fortunate, NOWHERE does it say to allow others to steal from you for any reason.

There is a special place in hell reserved for Nancy Pelosi and others of her ilk. It looks like you might be just trying to join her there.

the reason we are having these Town Hall Meetings is because the President believes that he is President of all the people. he believes that calm thinking, rational discussion, and sound facts can win the fearful and doubtful over to his side.

the fact that Obama is a Centrist, actually pisses the Leftists off. they believe that his election was a refutation of the destruction the Republican Party has wreaked on this country, and that a Democratic President should undo every bit of it, regardless of what the defeated party has to say.

He is not doing this. He has repeatedly sent offers of conciliation to the Right. he has had meetings with Republicans asking for suggestions, comments, debates. they shut him down. they have no plans but to kill his. they appear to not care about making the nation better, only to stop anything Obama wants to promote. And yet he still extends the hand to Republican Congressmen. Consider that the "end of life" provision that would compensate patients for discussing Living Wills with their health-care providers, the one that was distorted into the ridiculous "death panel" lie, was offered by a Republican. A fact that Obama is very proud of!

I almost wish that Obama and the Democratic Congress would just run you people over, but he won't because he is a better person than I am.

Poor li'l Jimmy Douchebag -

You're one special savant - you can read through a simple statement and find huge complexity underneath. Nowhere did I mention taxes.

You wasted far too much time in analyzing lit class, douchebag.

If you "can't stand my co-religionsts who crusade against abortion because the Church says it's wrong," you're an intellectual fraud. The Church isn't the source of the commandment against killing - only a liberal twat like yourself would attempt to rationalize that a healthy fetus (or zygote for that matter) isn't alive.

Good one Jim - Dead link on your "proof" of the Pope's position.

Bottom line - I can name 3 of the 10 commandments that Nancy Pelosi has broken, without even trying hard on my part.

And you Jim, have broken two of them already.

(Bearing false witness, Stealing) (And Nancy gets attempted Murder while she is at it.)

Sure, the Church favors giving to the poor, but they do not favor taking from everyone, nor do they favor rationing care, which is what this bill is all about.

I'm sure you will find that you have misread their position, if you look hard enough.

Kenneth:

"The fact that Obama is a Centrist"

Centrist? Quit drinking the kool aid. He's quite comfortable on the left wing. As evidenced by 20 years in Rev Wright's church.

"He has repeatedly sent offers of conciliation to the Right. he has had meetings with Republicans asking for suggestions"

Yeah, "Shut up" and "I won" have been real crowd pleasers.

"The reason we are having these Town Hall Meetings is because the President believes that he is President of all the people."

The reason for the town hall meetings is because Obama didn't get to shove health care reform down our throats BEFORE the August recess. Remember the July deadline for signing the bill? Keep drinking, Kenneth.

"I almost wish that Obama and the Democratic Congress would just run you people over"

They tried Kenneth. Only the Blue Dogs in their own party stopped the bus.

Pull your head out of your anal cavity.

"Im a Catholic who can't stand my co-religionsts who crusade against abortion because the Church says it's wrong."

Great "Catholic". And I see you've gone from social welfare being a 'mandate' to being a 'right'.

"Rights" stop being "rights" when you begin confiscating from one person to 'give' to another.

Garandfan: What confiscation?

So Jim is holier then all of us.

I say the "Right to basic care" is not the same thing as "giving care to everyone". And let's not confuse the facts. The right to basic care means I can walk into a doctor's office and pay my money to get the best care there is. THAT is my "right to basic care".

HR3200 is not about giving quality health care to everyone. HR3200 is about stealing from those that have quality health care and giving some of it to those that either will not or can not work for their own.

I have no problem with giving to those less fortunate then me, to the limits of my ability.

I have a BIG problem when you start stealing what I have worked for (quality health care) to give it to those that REFUSE to get off their own butts and earn their own way. This is what HR3200 is all about.

And I also have a problem with the fact that others besides my doctors and I will will be deciding what care I get (rationing). I've been down that road before. It took a lawsuit to get it squared away, and you can't sue the govenrment when they make a mistake.

Obamacare is a direct attempt to murder me and others like me.

So, Jim, go away and crawl back under your rock.

Oh, and Jim, it would not be the first time that I disagreed with a bishop. They are human and make mistakes too.

Mycroft: Read more, read a lot more, because you fundamentally misunderstand your Church's position if you think it opposes taxation to support health care reform.

Holier that all you? I've made no such claim. I started talking about the religious aspect of the debate when someone on this site argued that the injection of religion is legitimate. I also have not judged anyone as a sinner -- as you have.

You still have no explained how taxation to support health care is any more confiscatory than any other taxation scheme. Each dollar the Government takes away from me, is a dollar less that I have to support myself and my family. That applies to every dollar Government takes for military spending, social security, Medicare. You still have not answered me -- is the Government confiscating money from me to support these programs, especially ones I disagree with (like the war in Iraq)? Because I get total silence from you on that. Sloppy, sloppy thinking.

And by the way, the vast majority of those without insurance are working people. I suppose you have a job that subsidizes your health insurance, but people who work for small businesses, for example, your local family-owned restaurant, don't typically get health insurance. And they work -- they work hard. It must be so nice to live in your happy bubble.

Mycroft: "Oh, and Jim, it would not be the first time that I disagreed with a bishop. They are human and make mistakes too."

Bingo -- In that case, I take it you will stop criticizing Catholics who disagree with the Bishops on abortion.

Mycroft: A few more points:

1. You can sue the Government when they make a mistake. I'm a lawyer. I've done it several times and prevailed.

2. Health insurance companies ration now. They have to approve your treatment.

3. It is a lie that the reform package will take away your insurance if you're satsified with it. You can close your ears all you want, and stick you head up Glenn Beck's ass, but the Fox News clowns are irresponsibly wrong about that.

4. If you're on Medicare -- a Government run program supported by taxpayers -- shame on you for trying to deny the same right to the working poor.

"...or the guy who screamed and yelled and declared that Specter would one day stand before God. There are so many precious more mindless diatribes."

Kinda like the diatribe you thought you needed to bestow on me? You know, the one about where the Church stands and how greedy and self centered I am for not recognizing the rightness of putting everything into the hands of government?

The more you rattle on the more I'm reminded of the taskmaster standing over his charges, brow beating them with how selfish and horrible they are because they don't measure up to his standards nor believe as he does.

Your disdain for all those who have disagreed with you here has been made quite clear. It's merely tiresome now.

jim - "Nope Garandfan, I'm a JPII, Benedict XVI Catholic that agrees with them: universal care is a social justice mandate."

Don't I recall you saying universal health care was a right?

My memory isn't that dusty, yet, you did make that spurious claim.

Now, after avoiding citing where in the Constitution that right was given, you shift the debate to it being a social justice issue.

jim - "1. You can sue the Government when they make a mistake. I'm a lawyer. I've done it several times and prevailed."

Buwawahaha... oops sorry I digress.

Well then surely you can point to those court records right?

"2. Health insurance companies ration now. They have to approve your treatment."

Yep, they sure do, you have that correct at least. But that can be corrected without trashing the entire system currently in place.

And if you think for one hot second having the gov in control of ANY portion of health care beyond what's enacted now would be better than a for profit insurance company you're more of an ideologue than I had previously thought.

"4. If you're on Medicare -- a Government run program supported by taxpayers -- shame on you for trying to deny the same right to the working poor."

On the contrary, shame on you for supporting a bill that slashes Medicare budget drastically and will in fact create a loss of coverage for thousands.

JLawson - you are so right. I have made millions of mistakes and they were made by me with no help from anyone else. I will take the blame for that. I have said things I shouldn't have. I take full responsibility for that. I have deliberately done things that I knew were wrong but did them anyway. (FYI - Nothing criminal) I have tried to make amends and hope I have. Some people can't help but try and put the blame for their mis-steps because they are under the illusion they are too good to make a mistake. Who knows where it comes from. Did their parents tell them they were above everyone else? Did they grow up to be bullies and forced people to give in to their whims? Some people put blame on others because they are not carrying a full load above the shoulders. I'm not just talking about brains; I mean common sense, integrity, morals, having a conscience, all the rest. That plays a large part in who we are and who accepts the fact they are not perfect and those who think they are.
Thanks for keeping us informed in a logical and sane manner.
Madalyn

Oyster: "Diabrtibe?" Check out your posts directed at me. Check out the posts of others directed at me. Though my responses may have been as snarly as those directed at me, I at least offered substantive responses that addressed the arguments of this group.

Marc: I never claimed health care is a fundamental right enshrined in the Constitution. The Constitution is silent on it. That means Government can legislate in the area of it chooses (see Medicaid and Medicare). Follow the stream of posts, I pointed out that universal health care is a basic human right according to the Catholic Church. And that was after someone here (Oyster) claimed that inserting religion into the debate is legitimate because America is such a religious country. And no, Marc, I won't do anymore homework for you to show something as blatantly verifiable as the fact that you can se the Government. And I certainly have no intention of disclosing cases I've worked on to a group that surely contains some deranged gun-loving lunatics.

Final question Marc, I presume you're a free marketer, so how are you going to "correct" the system so that private firms are not allowed to ration care. This is rich.

How can you hypocrites hold that the Government cannot run health care if you want to protect Medicare (a Government-run program) so much? How can you with a straight face complain that making you pay for universal care is fundamentally wrong, but requiring taxpayers to support Medicare is not? Well, which is it? Can Governmet run health care or not? Can the Government take from others to support a health program, or not?

Oyster: I stand corrected, it was Marc -- not you -- who made the comments about the appropriateness of inserting religion into the debate. I see no comments from you other than the one today. So, my apologies to you.

Hey Jim,
Let's set the Catholic record straight.
True: the Catholic Church calls health care a "basic human right".
False: the Catholic Church DEMANDS that the government MUST provide it.
True: the CONSTITUTION does not include healthcare is any rights provided US citizens.
True: the Catholic Church expects Catholics to "give according to their means", volutarily.
False: the Catholic Church sets the amount it deems "according to their means".
Apologertics is a skill required of all Catholics, BUT IT REQUIRES KNOWLEDGE TO PERFORM.
Jimmy Boy, I know apologists, AND YOU ARE NOT AN APOLOGIST!!
Hope this doesn't hurt your feelings.

Jim

There really isn't much we can do with Medicare now. It's been around, in it's present form since 1965. A whole generation or two of elderly rely on it.
But history has shown that it is not run well.
Per Wiki,

Part of the cost of Medicare is attributable to fraud, which law enforcement estimates cost taxpayers over $60 billion in 2008.[44][45][46] The Government Accountability Office lists Medicare as a "high-risk" government program in need of reform, in part because of its vulnerability to fraud and partly because of its long-term financial problems.[47] Fewer than 5% of Medicare claims are audited.[46]

60 Billion in fraud, less that 5% audited.
A high risk program per the GAO.
60 Billion in fraud!!

If the govt can't manage this any better, why trust them to manage the whole ball of wax?

jim - "How can you hypocrites hold that the Government cannot run health care if you want to protect Medicare (a Government-run program) so much? How can you with a straight face complain that making you pay for universal care is fundamentally wrong, but requiring taxpayers to support Medicare is not? Well, which is it?"

jim you can stop stuffing that strawman, no one of reasonable mind is arguing that.

The argument is not doing away with medicare but fixing that atrocity FIRST before any other reforms such as Tort reform is undertaken.

That aside, if you truly are concerned about medicare I'd suggest you get a hold of your congress-critters pronto, as according to obama savings to fund any of the 5 health care bills under review will features cuts in money paid to doctors and fees for certain procedures covered under medicare.