We should sanction Israel for war crimes, including using human shields and chemical weapons.

I second that motion - right after the entire Palestinian leadership is executed for holding their population hostage for the last 50 years.

Can you imagine that! I thought Obama was all about "smart diplomacy". That becaue of HIM, the entire world would "love us once again".

I know Barry is a poor student of history (so look for him to repeat many past mistakes), but besides Hirohito signing surrender papers aboard the USS Missouri, does anyone recall a time when 'the entire world' loved us?

Arguments 101, you FAIL. Two wrongs make a right fallacy.

What's your point? I simply made a statement about Israel. Why do sanctions against Israel depend on something happening to the Palestinian leaders? Why not address the point that Israel is guilty of war crimes.

At least you didn't bring in Hitler.

Candidate Obama, 4 June 2008: "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided."

Didn't take him long to violate the spirit of that pledge.

"Why not address the point that Israel is guilty of war crimes."

Why not address the point that the PLO and Hamas are guilty of war crimes?

Two can play that game all day long. Where does that get us? I gave up 'sand box' fights many years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze5dbxPO8cU

If these are the type of people at the rally (and they will be) then I imagine the Wizbang staff will be really disappointed to miss it.

Why not discuss Iran while we're at it? By bringing in the Palestinian leadership, JLawson committed a variation of the logical fallacy of two wrongs make a right. Maybe more of a red herring, but nonetheless, irrelevant. The actions of the Palestinian leadership are not relevant to the actions of the Israeli army.

No, Rob - you brought in Hitler.

Frankly, I think the totally culpable party is the Palestinian leadership. For the last 50 years they've done their damndest to wipe out Israel, and fucked up every chance for peace that's been bought for them. They don't want peace, they don't want to coexist, they'll fight until the last Palestinian is dead - so as far as I'm concerned for there to be peace in the ME they've got to go. Give them the 'glorious deaths' they desire so much for their children and people.

After they're executed and replaced with a leadership that isn't actively suicidal culturally, we can revisit the problem of Israel. If you simply want Israel to disappear - well, they've been pretty durable so far, and they're quite aware that UN sanctions have all the authority and power of wet toilet paper.

Funny thing is - I was actually rather sympathetic to the Palestinians about twenty, thirty years back. But they've never failed to throw away any chance for peace, and I've pretty much lost patience with their stupidity, and the idiocy of those who haven't bothered to pay attention to Palestinian history.

"American action against Iran?" What...another nasty email?

Rob -

"The actions of the Palestinian leadership are not relevant to the actions of the Israeli army."

Tell me you didn't write that with a straight face. You're joking, right?

You're REALLY that ignorant? Cause and effect don't have any relevance in your neck of the woods, do they?

OldPuppyMax - "American action against Iran?" What...another nasty email?"

This time - they're going to send SNAIL mail, and they're going to use exclamation marks!

I am trying to decide what Obama's end game is. I am wondering if he is trying to create a "neutral" foreign policy. No strong allies to loyally support or no strong enemies to publically spar with on the international scene. I think he likes being called on to pontificate about his views on world affairs but I assume if any leader in the free world takes exception to the presidents views he will automatically have no more time for them. He is busying himself with economically enslaving the American public. Why break a sweat for other free governments over which he has no control.

JLawson,

It's true, the Palestinians are pretty hostile towards Israel. I believe I would be equally hostile if one million of my people had been displaced from their historical lands land and the leaders of the occupation forces used genocide as their official policy. I do think that would piss me off too.

It is also true that the Palestinian leadership has been crap. Buy why would they want anything less than the return of their lands, or even a small portion of their lands, and for Israel to stop killing their people? That seems a small thing to ask in return. Peace? You can't make peace with a government who is trying to annihilate you.

Now getting back to the topic of US support for Israel, why do we tolerate and support genocide?

JLawson,

Two wrongs never make a right.

"Now getting back to the topic of US support for Israel, why do we tolerate and support genocide?"

Because if we didn't - you'd see genocide. But somehow, I get the feeling you really wouldn't mind seeing Israel destroyed.

So why, Rob, do YOU support genocidal madmen?

The leadership of Israel, from before it was a country, used genocide as a means to an end.

There is a reason the Palestinians are hostile to Israel. That reason is genocide.

Rob -

Have a nice day. You really, really ought to look into Palestinian history - including what they did to get their entire people kicked out of Jordan, which (I believe) is a major reason why no other country in that area is at all willing to allow Palestinians to settle in their lands...

Why were they in Jordan? I thought they were from Palestine. Maybe they were on vacation. Was Jordan a popular destination for people from Palestine in the 1940's. I know a lot of them moved there after 1948, something like 850,000. Right now, there are almost 2,000,000 Palestinians in Jordan. Why don't they go home?

"There is a reason the Palestinians are hostile to Israel. That reason is genocide."

Rob, remember "Two wrongs don't make a right"?

Try doing some mid-east research, going back to around 1945-48. You'll find both sides were capable of doing some pretty nasty things TO EACH OTHER.

Since '48, the Pali's have been playing the victim card. That's over 60 years ago. Their still stuck in 'victim mode' thanks to their leaders - who ended up with multi-million dollar bank accounts in Paris.

GarandFan,

I do agree the Palestinians play the victim very, very well. Their leaders teach them this.

Do some reading on what early Israeli leaders thought was the "solution" to the "problem" of Palestinians living in Palestine. Look deeply, and you will find genocide, plain and simple. After being subjected to genocide in Europe, they turned around and used this same tactic to create Israel.

Rob -

You don't know the history? LOL!

Damn, dude, you're a REAL winner, aren't you?

Good luck - you're about as persuasive as a BAD used car salesman. All you need is the yellow plaid coat, and you're all set.

Here ya go, Rob -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

I think it was about 15 years back I found out about this - it really took the shine off Palestinian 'victimhood'.

I am trying to decide what Obama's end game is.

Given what I have seen so far Obama's end game is to make the United States irrelevant in international affaires.

If the lunatics in Israel are pissed off at Obama, then he's probably doing the right thing. My friend's parents are visiting from Tel Aviv; have voted Likud in previous elections; and think it's absolutely hilarious that Americans who criticize Netanyahu and his ilk are accused of being anti-Israel at best, and anti-Semitic at worst.

What do you call an Israeli who thinks the expansion of settlements is an insane policy; and who thinks Benjamin Netanyahu is not fit to hold any public office? Oh, right: self-hating Jew. Bunch of geopolitical Woody Allens, they are!

Rob

Try doing a tad bit of research

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

a. Palestine is a name which has been widely used since Roman times to refer to the region that was earlier called Judea, which spreads between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River.

b. The name itself was given to these lands by the Romans around 135 CE when the emperor Hadrian brutally suppressed the Jewish Resistance movement and occupied Judea.They called it the Province of 'Syria Palaestina and built a temple to Jupiter on Israel's destroyed holiest site.

c. According to the Encyclopædia_Britannica_Eleventh_Edition (1911)[3] Palestine is:

[A] geographical name of rather loose application. Etymological strictness would require it to denote exclusively the narrow strip of coast-land once occupied by the Philistines, from whose name it is derived. It is, however, conventionally used as a name for the territory which, in the Old Testament, is claimed as the inheritance of the pre-exilic Hebrews; thus it may be said generally to denote the southern third of the province of Syria.

---

Shall I go on? If Palestine wants land back why not ask Syra for the southern third of their country.

As for Genocide. I havent heard for Israel calling for extermination of the Arabs. Got any links? Where as I have heard folks like the Iranian president calling for the eradication of Israel.

You are an idiot who deliberately overlooks facts.

"Palestine" used in a modern context such as this discussion is that land denoted in the British Mandate. I believe this took effect in 1923? Thus, the 850,000 displaced persons were those that lived in much of this land, prior to the 1948 war.

As for Israeli plans for extermination of Arabs, one needs to go no further than the writings of Ben-Gurion, among many, many others. They said one thing and did another, over and over again. You won't get the story from FoxNews. Americans have been fed bull-shit from the beginning, and we bought it because Christians wanted to believe it.

So your best shot was someone who died ummm 35 years ago. Vs Ahmajdejahan (spelling) and the last 40 years of Arabs wanting Israel to be taken off the face of the earth.

Whatever guy.

The Palestinians, Syrians and Iranians have been give every chance of peace with Israel. They have turned their backs on it every time.

Keep on smoking that stuff but dont let the cops catch you.

Pay attention buddy. History goes back further than Ahmajdejahan (spelling, me too). I am talking about the founders of Israel. You know, the people that started this whole mess. THEY kicked hundreds of thousands of Palestinians off their land and out of their country. Kind of like what the European settlers did to the Native Americans, except in the 20th century.

There are two sides to this conflict, and you are only looking at one side. Israel is rarely, if ever, on the correct side on human rights issues. No shit, the Arabs hate them and want to kill them. Ever wonder why? Maybe because Israel fucked over an entire population, killed hundreds of thousands, and stole most of their land.

To be fair to Rob, he is probably more right than most of you when it comes to historical Palestine. Now to preface I'm a supporter of Israel, simply b/c I like having a stable, strong, democratic country, in the middle of that mess, I personally am an American interests first kinda person and it's in our interests to have a strong Isreal.

That having been said, Palestineans don't have much problem with "Jews" they have a problem with Zionists. One has to realize that the original inhabitants of the area we know as Isreal are the same ethnically, they are Arab descinded ppl wether they be Jews, Christians or Muslims, they all got along in the area for a very long time.

After WWII and the atrocities committed by the Nazi's strong sympathy towards the Yiddish speaking Jews of Europe, not ethnically/culturally, tied to the Arabic, Hebrew speaking Jews of Palastine was created. These Jews of Europe and North Africa, after centuries of abuse, wrapped themselves in their religion as a Culture/identity with the promise of Zion and a return to the land promised by God. Due to mass guilt, the Brits, with U.N. support, partitioned the area of Palestine, and enforced borders, for the first time in the areas history, creating a defined "Jewish" homeland.

The British, who were the administrators of the area, facilitated the influx of hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants from Europe and North Africa. These new arrivals were ethnicly and cultually different than the resident Jews and soon came to control the area. Their efforts towards Zionism were soon countered by the British, who feared the growing movement. This allowed Kovner and his ilk to give rise to modern terrorism, these guys are the inventors of the car bomb. Not long after, the British, who were tired of fighting, withdrew. With a sympathetic world in their corner these supporters of Zionism soon set out to remove all non Jewish ppl. They forced, by the sword, all Arabic Muslims and Christians out of their new homeland, forcing most of the Muslims to Jordan and the Christians to Lebanon.

This is the basis of the conflict. I suppose the closest analogy for us would be Native Americans and the settlement of the west. They were told get off the land, move to reservations or die, your choice. If that had happened in the 20th instead of the 19th century we may of had a similar situation in the U.S.

Now that having been said, modern Israel is a much different place, radical Zionism is not popular. Many non Jews serve in the Israeli Defense Force and they are a beacon of sanity in an insane area. So, it is in America's best interest to continue it's vigirous support and why Barry would want to undermine that I have no clue.

"Pay attention buddy. History goes back further than Ahmajdejahan (spelling, me too). "

Yep. Israel was there thousands of years ago.

"I am talking about the founders of Israel."

I take it you dont mean the twelve tribes.

" You know, the people that started this whole mess. THEY kicked hundreds of thousands of Palestinians off their land and out of their country"

Funny . That was the UN that did that after WW2. The Jews right after WW2 had no power. Hell most were barely alive.

Funny . That was the UN that did that after WW2. The Jews right after WW2 had no power. Hell most were barely alive.

Actually the population of European Jews, before the Holocaust, was estimated to be between 8-10 million. It's also estimated that between 60% of those were killed or died b/c of ghettoization and starvation, that left a population of 3 to 4 million left in formally occupied Europe, that doesn't count the escapees, or those in England, the U.S., Russia and North Africa.

To say they had no power is not really true either, they had the sympathy and guilty feelings of the winners of the war. This was very powerful and instrumental in their take over of Palestine.

Small correction, 60% or more were killed b/c ghettoization, starvation and the death camps.

"Two wrongs never make a right."

A very true saying. However, you advocate one wrong then. Great idea.

"Right now, there are almost 2,000,000 Palestinians in Jordan. Why don't they go home?"

Ask them. Maybe they don't like the Palestinian government any more than the rest of us.

"Buy why would they want anything less than the return of their lands, or even a small portion of their lands, and for Israel to stop killing their people?"

One word - "Gaza". And look what they've done to it. So how far back can we go in history to justify giving land back to the Jews who had it first?

You got a lot of learnin' to do, son.

---------------------------
And Deke, with all due respect, you totally omit the active role Palestinians took to align themselves with Hitler long before WWII even broke out and long before Israel was created. They wanted help killing the Jews that were already there. Which brings us to another key point, such as, the attacks against Jews in the Mid East began decades before WWII against not the newly relocated Zionists, but those Jewish families who had lived in the area for centuries. There have been wrong-doings on both sides of this issue, but let's not pretend here that it's just the Palestinians vs. the Jews. It's nearly ALL of the Middle East that want to see every single Jew killed and in the ground. There's much much more, but I don't have the time or inclination to beat this horse.

For the life of me I cannot understand why, every time this argument breaks out, there are those who are so sure about their knowledge that they randomly pick a starting point and begin their argument. (I'm not just picking on you, Deke. It's a general statement) It's like picking up a book, starting in the middle, reading through to the end and then saying you know everything there is to know about the story.

Are they going to hang and burn a effege of THE ANNOYING ONE which the liberal left-wing media will never show?

"Yep. Israel was there thousands of years ago."

And who was there before Israel? The land was occupied, and god's "chosen people" killed most of the occupants that time too.

Your perspective on this issue changes dramatically when you stop believing in fairy tales.

Exactly, the Israeli's are the occupiers and as such have the right to do with the land however they see fit. You don't hear anyone asking the Hebrew's to give land back to the Canaanites or any other ancient race from back then. It's just like giving America back to the natives- it ain't gonna happen. Maybe the Palestinians would be better off savoring what they've got instead of b$#*&ing about it all the time and destroying infrastructure left behind for them when the Israeli's gave them other lands.

Yeah, except we are supposed to be more civilized than the bible.

You might find this interesting, Rob. Michael Totten's very well respected as a reporter who actually reports on ME issues.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/totten/74571

Hamas is a bit slower to learn than was Hezbollah, but seven long months after the conclusion of Operation Cast Lead, the rockets out of Gaza have finally stopped. Israelis will no longer put up with indiscriminate attacks on their houses and schools. Many Palestinians in Gaza have likewise had their fill of Hamas's self-destructive campaign of "resistance."

Guess it's all a matter of trust on who you believe - but I'd go with Totten and Yon's reporting over a talking head's report ont he same thing on CNN any day.

I saw that article blogged on somewhere. Nowhere have I stuck up for the Palestinian leadership; they suck. That has never been my point here. I was simply trying to discuss the horrific history of Israel and the responsibility of the Zionists and the modern Israeli army for genocide and war crimes. What the Israeli army did in Gaza is criminal.