Ruth Bader Ginsburg presiding.

The American people do not want Bush and Cheney or any of their officials who used interrogation techniques that kept us safe these past seven years investigated in America let alone in a foreign court.

Sometimes you're refreshingly naive, Kim.

I repeat Rule One of American politics: No liberal ever pays a political price for anything they say or do, no matter how disgusting, false, malicious, or outright treasonous an action or statement it may be.

I want Barry to do this. It will sink him and elevate GW when it is revealed all GW did to keep us safe. Bring it on. ww

Do your conservative values that you pride yourself on and would never think of abandoning or compromising allow you to compromise the American values of NOT using torture against prisoners? Using torture on people is completely anti-American. Yet conservatives support it. Your conservative values are either being compromised, or they don't represent American values. Which is it? If I read you right, criminal acts are okay. Breaking the law is okay. But if people don't like it and want it punished, THEY are the problem? That's some sweet tortured logic, pun intended.

WildWillie: "It will sink him and elevate GW when it is revealed all GW did to keep us safe. Bring it on."

In a sane world with a free press...yes.

THAT world is on the OTHER side of the looking glass, Alice.

On THIS side of the looking glass being SAFE has no value...only being PERCEIVED as being "noble".

The peacful and (realatively) acrimony-free transition of power is coming to an end in this country. The Dems won't always be in power...and then the first non-Dem administration afterwards will naturally investigate THEM. Maybe even in Spain!

JC

The one problem in your statment is that you define torture for us. In my definition of torture waterboarding is not it. Of course the discussion of what torture is and istn never went anywhere in the other 5 threads so nothing will get resolved here.

To me I see no problem waterboarding suspects, using certain drugs, putting them in cramp spaces, putting them in with insects etc.

I do have a problem with things like beheadings, beatings, and things like that.

To say we dont want them to treat American soldiers like we are treating their prisoners is naive at best. We already treat their prisoners a 1000 times better than they would treat American prisoners. Nothing we do is going to change that fact.

Are you kidding Hammer, I feel like waterboarding YOU, and believe me, not a thought in my mind other than satisfaction at the idea. Your posts here are so incredibly stupid and ignorant that most people probably have to make themselves stop laughing long enough to type.

Listen moron, you're on a Conservative Weblog and you're a guest among those who do not believe what you believe. Isn't it clear to you that we think your understandings of foreign and domestic policy are wrong and that there is no respect here for your whining and diatribes.

Listen up now, go away. No one likes you, we mostly think you are deluded and simple minded and embarrassingly naive. Have some common courtesy and take it somewhere that thinks like you enough to welcome you into the conversation and and leave us in peace.

Why, when it is clear you are little more than a bomb thrower with your caustic and hateful posts, do you continue to do it? Do you think you are on a mission from God or something?? Do you believe that some miracle is going to take place and we will sign in weeping to this page, with tears in our eyes saying, "O Hammer, you've shown us the way. Your golden words and gifted mind have enlightened us. Take us with you to your compatriots and show them your blessed work among us."?

No one at the site benefits from your presence, so why don't you just get lost. Unless of course you can quit preening there in your basement as you type, congratulating yourself on how brilliant and witty you are, and can actually try to communicate with those are not like you and don't want to be.

MichaelC - "Listen up now, go away. No one likes you, we mostly think you are deluded and simple minded and embarrassingly naive. Have some common courtesy and take it somewhere that thinks like you enough to welcome you into the conversation and and leave us in peace."

So much for dialog right? Advice you give should be taken yourself.

When shocking photos of detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib came out in early 2004, Bush told an Arabic TV station, "We will find the truth, we will fully investigate, the world will see the investigation, and justice will be served."...Americans dare not even think about a genuine investigation since the path would surely lead to the author of those remarks, who for wingnuts represents someone who is and was above the law.

And as for this contiuous refrain about keeping America safe- How does that square with Bush blowing off "Your ass is covered", when he dismissed nonchantly in Crawford, Texas, the FBI agent and memo of August 6, 2001, called the Presidential Daily Briefing, or PDB, titled 'Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S'." Exactly safe did Bush keep those four thousand Americans who died on Sept 11, 2001 and as I recall he stonewalled the creation and then operations of the 9/11 comission at every turn. I wonder why?

If I were in the Obama administration, I would strongly advise against setting any precedents here. Who's to say that the next Republican Administration won't redefine treason as - Oh, I don't know - overthrowing democracy and instituting pure socialism. Imagine the trials that could take place in that scenario.

When shocking photos of detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib came out in early 2004, Bush told an Arabic TV station, "We will find the truth, we will fully investigate, the world will see the investigation, and justice will be served."

I wonder why wingnuts still don't want a proper investagation of those abuses and torture, and where the policies originated. Could it be that they feel the high officials in the Bush administration, including the President himself, were above the law?

"Imagine the trials that could take place in that scenario." I also imagine the firing squads for the Facist Left. Rope is too good.

Crickmore- there were investigations and punishment for Abu Ghraib. Move on.

If Obama goes along with this, can we change his name to Pontius Pilate?

Forgot to add; Holder can be Judas. After all, he's sold his soul for money before. Ask Mark Rich.

k: "Crickmore- there were investigations and punishment for Abu Ghraib. Move on."

geez, k, don't throw facts at Leftists, they're allergic to 'em! :)

k.. The US few bad (7) apples -lower rank US soldiers- paid and are paying jail time for the architects, the real bad cowardly apples of authorized Rumsfeld/ Bush policy; whose memos are only now being released, which prove that these loyal soldiers were made scapegoats of official but secretive classified policy.

"'We will find the truth, we will fully investigate, the world will see the investigation, and justice will be served.'

I wonder why wingnuts still don't want a proper investagation of those abuses and torture, and where the policies originated."

...except for the minor detail that there WAS an investigation, many people WERE punished (including some who had no direct connection to Abu Ghraib, well up the command chain), and big changes were made in training and supervision.

All for the events that happened in one prison, in less than a week (mostly in one night), which resulted in nothing more than embarrassment and shame for the prisoners. No serious injuries, no lasting harm. The things that happened there were AGAINST all US military policies.

During the same time "the world" was railing against the US for Abu Ghraib, a story turned up about how the French treat regular prisoners in their own country - and it turns out that the standard treatment there is worse than the excesses we saw in the Abu Ghraib pics...

Note the difference in what the lefties want now: they want a lot of people punished, all the way up to the then-President, for the actions of a handful of soldiers. Meanwhile, when someone directly under President Obama screws up and does something extremely dumb (like buzzing New York City with an Air Force One backup), all they need is a typed apology from the guy who "made a mistake."

I know that Bush Derangement Syndrome is powerful, but it is hard to believe that even the most severely afflicted would argue for this.

American citizens arguing in favor of a Spanish Kangaroo Court trying high level American Officials for actions taken to protect the United States. Can anything be more bizarre?

But, referring to the Spanish; talk about the pot and the kettle. I can remember seeing the Guardia Civil patrolling the streets of Barcelona with machine guns to control their own citizens. Even American sailors knew that when the Guardia were about, you kept your mouth shut and if they stayed, you left. The few who saw the inside of Spanish jails could enlighten you about abuse. But now our Spanish "friends" are enlightened and typical of most Liberals believe in the rights of selected persons.

Anyone who would argue that recreational drugs do not have serious and lasting effects need only read some of these posts.

Steve Crickmore: "loyal soldiers were made scapegoats of official but secretive classified policy."

Oh bullshit! Those involved in the AbuGharib stupidity were prosecuted...and that is NOT what this is about. Nor was what they per "official but secretive classified policy"

The problem our Dear Leader is having is that the American people don't want our people (yes, all the way up to and including Bush) prosecuted for keeping us safe...so the Obama regime is looking for a surogate!

JC Hammer #4

Wrong again moron. I suppose your mama clipping your toenails and wiping your ass were torture too? Yes they were, for Her.

Hmm, it's interesting -- even the Freepers have thrown Bush under the bus. They defend the practice of torture (of course!) but there is no longer any taboo whatsoever against slamming Bush for anything and everything in the comments.

The Decider stands alone.

Justrand, The Abu Ghraib investigations were limited to either MPs or lower rank officers.

Certainly, the military investigators were prohibited from investigating the miltary top brass or Rumsfeld or any of the architects of the torture policies. No mea culpas or accountability for the higher ups. This of course satisfies many who wanted a whitewash, (like yourself?) or only a few many hillbilly MPs reprimanded and imprisoned. "Justice would be served" according to Bush, and 'we could move on'.

Head of Abu Ghraib Investigation Says US Needs Commission to Investigate Bush Torture, Detention Policies'

March 9, 2004: Maj. Gen. Taguba Submits the Finalized Version of His Report Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba submits the final version of his report (see February 26, 2004) on the investigation into prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib by MPs. He concludes that military intelligence personnel played a part in the abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib. But due to the fact that his investigation was limited to the conduct of MPs (see January 19, 2004), he did not investigate military intelligence conduct. Another investigation (see August 25, 2004), however, is launched that will examine military intelligence's role in the abuses. It will be conducted by Maj. Gen. George R. Fay, the Army's deputy chief of staff for intelligence. But the scope of this investigation is also limited from the outset, for two reasons. First, as a two-star general, he cannot hold any officer of his own rank or higher accountable. Second, Fay is appointed by Lt. Col. Ricardo S. Sanchez and therfore the scope of investigation is limited to the people under Sanchez's command. [Newsweek, 6/7/2004] Additionally, Fay may be less inclined to report negatively on military intelligence personnel, since his superior, Lt. Gen. Keith Alexander, head of Army Intelligence, has already stated that the abuse at Abu Ghraib was committed by "a group of undisciplined military police" who were acting on their own, and not upon instructions from military intelligence officers.

And according to Gallup poll released,
A Slim Majority Wants Bush-Era Interrogations Investigated 51% to 42%.

*sigh*

Steve Crickmore, you keep (intentionally?) confusing Abu Ghraib with the "Bush-Era Interrogations" that SOME want "Investigated"

Abu Ghraib was NOT "policy"...it WAS rogue individuals...and the prosecutions were accomplished.

If next week a "lowly Private" (to quote our Dear Leader) murders someone in, say, France, are you going to prosecute Obama? Why not? He IS the CinC.

The "Bush-Era Interrogations" that Spain wants to "investigate" WERE policy decisions by the CinC...and they WERE legal per OUR laws!

You may not like those policies, and now your boyo has changed them Bush kept us SAFE with those policies...and now whatever happens it is Obama's to own!

A Spanish court conducting a trial of an American official for actions outside Spain is an act of war. Support for that action by Mr Holder or President Obama is by definition treason under Article III Section 3 of the Constitution. I vigorously support the Constitution's very narrow definition of treason and would oppose any effort to widen it, but there is no wiggle room here. Any response except utter contempt, gales of laughter or declaration of war is aid and comfort.

The Obama regime may yet exceed Carter and Buchanan as the most damaging to the country in foreign affairs. They certainly are headed that way. If the O-bots want to conduct show trials of political opponents here, that's domestic. If they use a foreign proxy, that is treason.

Steve - If you want to call former General (now retired Army Col.) Janis Karpinski an MP or a lower ranked officer, go right ahead.

I disagree, but will fight to the death for your right to express your opinion. I also will call you a F! moron for expressing such an idiotic opinion.

I trust that you will also fight to the death for my right to call you so.

Ken Hahn - "A Spanish court conducting a trial of an American official for actions outside Spain is an act of war."

Really, show me a reputable constitutional lawyer or judge that thinks that and I'll believe it, til then you're just a wacko.

Justrand - "Steve Crickmore, you keep (intentionally?) confusing Abu Ghraib with the "Bush-Era Interrogations" that SOME want "Investigated"

Sad how that works isn't Justrand?

IT's a very good example why the release of those photos and the impending release of more do nothing but give an excuse for idiots like crickmore, and large pack of barking curs in the EU, to lump abhorrent behavior by a few into something much larger.

Cirby - "During the same time "the world" was railing against the US for Abu Ghraib, a story turned up about how the French treat regular prisoners in their own country - and it turns out that the standard treatment there is worse than the excesses we saw in the Abu Ghraib pics..."

In interesting sidenote to that, and a question for steve and others.

The hue and cry at that time was "the pics were released, so what!" Oue enemies don't watch the news, they don't care."

It was a very common theme/talking point from the anti-bush/anti-war herd.

Remember how the prisoners were dressed in Abu Ghraib, they were in orange colored overalls. The pics were shown on 60 Minutes in April 2004.

Nick Berg was abducted and beheaded May 2004.

What was Nick Berg wearing as he was beheaded?

Orange overalls is the answer.

But, no... never would the release of those pic be used as propaganda by the jihadist-cut-throats....no, never the dimwits all said in unison.

The 'aberrant behavior' practicised by a few bad apples in Abu Ghraib was standard accceptable practice earlier in Guantanamo Bay. I wonder how that happened? I suppose we can only speculate, because conservatives have more confidence in a system or policies or men they don't like looking at too closely.

I agree with Obama that if our system is so superior we should use it rather than resort to practices we have strongly condemned the enemy for using since the Republic began.

Interrogators at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, forced a stubborn detainee to wear women's underwear on his head, confronted him with snarling military working dogs and attached a leash to his chains, according to a newly released military investigation that shows the tactics were employed there months before military police used them on detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

While Rumsfeld approved a list of 16 harsh techniques for use at Guantanamo on Dec. 2, 2002, most of the techniques were general and allowed for interpretation by interrogators. Many of the techniques involving humiliation were part of a standard "futility" or "ego down" approach.

"Reasonable people always suspected these techniques weren't invented in the backwoods of West Virginia," said Tom Malinowski, the Washington director of Human Rights Watch. "It's never been more clear than in this investigation."

Ref #21. Yep, and then she used the toilet paper to shine your teeth.

The law of unintended consequences rules here - do you REALLY want to establish the precedent of tossing our country's officials to other countries when the political winds shift?

I will say again, I want Barry and his cohorts to go after GW Bush. It will bring Barry's approval ratings and that of the congress down quicker then anything else. Because we all know it will become political and the citizens between New York and California will see the unfairness of it. Bring.It.On.

If Barry says waterboarding is torture, that does not mean I think it is. I have the ability to think independently.

I have not thrown GW under the bus. I did not support him with immigration or the bank bailout, but I am very supportive and appreciative of his unwavering desire to keep me and my family safe. He did it no matter what the polls said. That is a man of character and integrity. A class act. Barry is a crass act. ww

"Barack Obama is getting a lot of push back against the idea of investigating Bush administration officials for their role in tough interrogation techniques against terrorists,"

Terrorists? What terrorists. There are only men that cause disasters. Like throat slitting disasters, and market bombing disasters. You know, MCDs.

Those poor terrorists had water poured on them for nothing! They didn't do it! Men that cause disasters did it.

But if Obama actually does this, he will pay a dear price. His presidency would be over. Not only would those who currently don't like him and see him as dangerous to our nation be even more committed to seeing him ousted in 2012, but those independents and moderate Republicans who voted for him but who have been teetering in their support since he started overreaching with his gargantuan domestic agenda would be lost completely.

On the contrary, we'd get justice the way it should be metered out.

And if there are American's out there who don't think justice and fairness is meaningful - and that those who've committed crimes should be let go based on "personal preference" - well, we don't need your votes.

I tend to be of the belief that interrogating people to circumvent massive loss of life is pretty just and fair, and beyond that good practice.

Evidently, you'd rather sacrifice the lives of innocents so as to avoid pouring water on someone?

NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

SteveP - "On the contrary, we'd get justice the way it should be metered out."

Well then I guess you wouldn't mind any infractions of U.S. law you may commit during the remainder of your life be adjudicated by a foreign judicial system.

Saudi Arabia might be a "good" location. I hear they have some rather "unique penalties there.

hey crickmore - "The 'aberrant behavior' practicised........"

Funny there's no mention of any WH perpetrated "grand conspiracy" noted anywhere in your linked news story.

There is a mention of one asshole, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, who took his loony ideas applied at Gitmo to Abu Ghraib.

But funny thing about that also, the abuse at Abu Ghraib took place in April 2004, he wasn't assigned duty at Abu Ghraib until AFTER the abuse took place and he replaced that despicable turd Gen. Janis Karpinski (Col.).

To be fair, he did visit iraq in 2003 allegedly to advise "military officers on how to extract intelligence from Iraqi detainees."

That said of the numerous investigations on these incidents none has shown anything but Miller being culpable.

You can spin your Grand Conspiracies until the sun dies out it won't change anyting.

The only thing that will change is the color of your tighty whities as they go from white to brown as obama refuses to aid the Spanish witch hunt and puts a leash on Holder and the few nutjobs in congress who would do the same on U.S. shores.

obama is many things, but he's not stupid, it ain't gonna happen.

marc-ie that boy is a dumbass PERIOD. Look at his cabinet picks for crying out loud. I've never seen any president with more clamor and scandal from over his picks than this Totus turd.
I'm beginning to wonder if you, hyperbolist, and clay are one and the same.

Yes, G.: everybody who is smarter than you is obviously the same person.

Hypo,Hows that itch babe?
Missed me already darlin?!
:-D

Obama is not the one doing it, it's the ones in power. The same ones that are telling Biden to say, "Panic". Barry won't do a thing until he is told, and yes, history repeats itself for the most obvious reasons.