For those of us that lost family members and friends in that horrific waste, the Vietnam War, what sacrifice? McCain is called lucky.

dr lava -

Astroturf.

Go back to Winner and Axelrod.

(And I was in that war zone twice)

So it's only a sacrifice if you die. Getting wounded or spending years as a POW or risking your life every day for months/years or being away from your family and kids for months/years or being tortured or watching buddies die or watching innocent civilians get slaughtered by commies/Islamists or etal. doesn't count as a sacrifice? Sheesh, you make the Spartans seem weak.

what sacrifice? McCain is called lucky.

Fuck you. If you call being beaten and broken within an inch of your life "lucky", then...

Fuck you.

For all the men that stood the watch in time of war. I say thank you.

Dr Lava
Since it was Kenndey that Got us into the War and Johnson that prolonged it and Nikon that took our ground forces out will you be voting for McCain since Sen Biden said Obama will be tested just like JFK?

dr lava~

He is one of many that endured captivity and torture so you could be lucky. Unless you were pondering moving to another country...Bon Voyage!

It's not sacrifice unless you die???WTF???
Sometimes dying would be suffering a lot less.
Anyways, sacrifice comes from sacre-fice the giving of blood. WTF?

The takeaway from all this tho is that this election is between the candidate with the John Mc Cain vision of who Americans are and what America is and the the candidate whose visions are those of Hanoi Jane Fonda.

A true American hero. What a man.

What a contrast. Why is this even a race? John McCain should be up 20 points by rights. His opponent has accomplished...what? Oh yeah, he's written two memoirs.

Ref #5. Ike put the first troops in Vietnam, not JFK. JFK was going to pull the troops out, then he got killed, and yes Johnson committed more troops to Vietnam.

Yes McCain made a sacrifice, but so did a whole bunch of others. McCain is no bigger a hero than the others that were over there, he just mentions it more than others, that's all.

The most disturbing and submissive of McCains many abandonments of what used to be his principles was his vote AGAINST the ban on torture:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00022

After that he continued the fake story line of "supporting the troops" by not voting for the GI bill:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00127

John Kerry went to Nam and got three scratches to get three purple hearts. He came home in three months and started selling out our military. The left, and the trolls here called him a hero, and how dare we criticize his "service and sacrifice". My how four years changes things.

I do not like to even think about what McCain had to endure. Horrifying to say the least. His body is still broken, but his spirit and courage are huge. Like Dennis Miller said, "I voted for McCain and I would have voted for him just for the 5 1/2 years of sacrifice he did for me, I owe him four years at least".

You pathetic, cowardly, lefty trolls have sunk to a level where I actually think you are reprobates. ww

Allen,
ok I will ammend
JFK got us further into Vietnam with no goal of getting us out.

The USA and Nam have long history and because many bad policy decisions by Democratic and Republican Administrations and racism by Woodrow Wilson a brutal one.
Ho Chi Min had tried to work with USA since the early 1900's. He crafted his 8 points based on Williston's 14 points. HO Chi Min tried to meet him but Wilsionbeing the racist he was would not meet with a non white. During WWII Ho Chi Min worked with USA to save America and Chinese pilots with the expectations that the USA would support his bid for independence from France. FDR first agreed to help them. Acting in the interest of the UK which wanted to maintain its colonies he backed away. The reasoning from Churchill being if Indochina started on the road to self determination hen other colonies would want it to.
The French made life harder for the Vietnamese once they learned this. With no help coming from western powers Ho Chi Min turned to Communist Russia.
With the Iron Curtain in Europe in late 40's the Korean war in the 50's Communism was thought to be on the march. So the USA viewed the French as holding the line in South East Asia. The US committed money to helping the French in the 50's and then money and advisors. Kennedy, because of the Bay of Pigs and Berlin Wall did not want to appear week on Communism so he upped our commitment to Vietnam. He also sent in more military advisors and wanted men trained for guerilla warfare. That why he founded the Navy SEALS. JFK was committed to NAM he increased spending in it and prepared the military for it with the forming of special troops to go there. If he did not die would we have fought the same kind of war? Most likely not but the Cuban missile crisis fresh in his head because of his actions on the Bay of Pigs we would have fought.

Allen -

Can you provide any links or pointers to evidence supporting your statement that "JFK was going to pull the troops out, ...." ?

I believe that a man who went through what Senator McCain did will not take lightly our mens' and women's service for their country. I believe he will operate to do what is in their best interest and our country's safety. I'm glad he lived to tell. Vietnam is still not over for some former soldiers. For my late uncle, it ended about 9.5 year ago. He died due to his exposure to agent orange which riddled his body with cancer. I remember my aunt telling me after I reached adulthood about his "night terrors" and how violent he would get because he thought he was still in the jungle over there. She said there was a time when he was scary to be around. I will never disrespect anyone who unselfishly serves this country of their own volition.

Dr Lava

Are you speaking of the Webb GI Bill?
The one that all 4 Branches of the Military opposed because it discourages keeping trained people in the service?
Webb used a benefit for troops returning from WWII. It was for transition a larger force of men after a conflict was over to use it while we are fighting was a vied attempt to kill the high level of re-enlistment and force a draft to undermine the war effort. As it gives 4 years of college with room aboard at E5 level after 36 months of service. One lesson learn from NAM was you want combat experienced troops the more of them you have the less men you lose.

McCain has always stated that the CIA should not be constrained by the methods outlined in the Army Field manual. So, he has not abandoned principles. Also the bill did not band torture. So if the CIA has mehthod not outline in the Field Manual and it saves American lives. Let them do it. I notice how well our foes wring thier hands.
Terrorist Scum Bag :You know OBL is it right for use kidnap people ransom them and chop off their heads?
OBL: Let me think NOPE
TSB: I wonder if it ok that brutalize our own women?
OBL: Sure it is.
TSBL is it ok that we our killing our own women and children
OBL: Sure it is.
I am always amazed how we have bad rep on the arba street when the most brutal pigs are and the ones who target their own civilians are the Arabs.